Dear Ed
I am also an all gut user, and a strong advocate for this closest
(Roman) to historic solution; besides it sounds better to my ears than
any synthetics.
We have strong arguments from DvO relating T. Satoh's experience, to
consider that playing a particular piece of music on the stringing-type
with which it was created gives the best results : some compositions
that Satoh made on
synthetic strings apparently don't work well on gut, while some he made
on
gut don't work on synthetics (no problem here for Roman, then when he
plays his own compositions).
%
Nevertheless, many synthetics users, even those who use nylgut, often
use nylon on the top string. This has a closer density to gut than
Titanium nylon, but sounds worse than nylgut to my ears. I did feel
that the Titanium nylon sounded a little better than nylon (and
certainly better than carbon on the top).
%
I have not heard the new nylgut, but think it should be much closer to
gut, and a better solution than either Carbon, nylon or Titanium Nylon.
I hope we will soon receive reports.
Evidently, like yourselves, I would prefer everyone to use gut, and for
gut users to seriously experiment with their stringing (as I know you
do).
%
That said, I would prefer synthetic users to at least make experiments.
This could even lead to them finally to experiment with gut. I know
some here, have done so.
%
In fact, it was Charles Besnainou's experiments with polymer stringing
for the lute that lead to Savarez' "creation" of KF, following his
demonstration of this material-type to them, and this is often now used
as a substitute by gut users (Jacob Heringman) on Meanes, for difficult
concert situations.
%
Interestingly for Ned, Charles had been trying to find a way of
completely eliminating the need for wirewounds basses (or Meanes),
which he considered totally unsuitable for lute music, when he
discovered the advantages of PVF for creating his spring "Garachoir"
bass strings (which he can now make in gut).
I still find that wirewounds are the greatest problem area for
synthetic stringing (although, I would admit that has been a difficult
problem for gut stringing also. I am very thankful for the existence of
Mimmo's loaded strings, as I know you are also for Dan's gimped
strings).
%
Ned
" personally have never had serious problems with strings breaking,
but am more bothered by wound strings wearing at the frets and
buzzing. Partly for that reason, I'm now using carbon for the fifth
course rather than wound strings." Ned
%
As an amateur gut user, top strings breaking, is not a problem for me
either. I am used to it. Perhaps during a concert, I would be worried.
I saw POD's top string snap to amazing effect, just in the very last
bar of the final piece in a superb concert. Perhaps he hade rehearsed
the whole thing ...
%
I agree that wirewounds are the real problem, and I am glad not to have
any at all on my lute.
%
Martyn
They were using Savarez Carbon for Meanes, and Titanium nylon for 1st
and 2nd.
I am wondering why using Titanium nylon which has a lower density than
gut is less historic than using Carbon which has a higher density, or
indeed using wirewounds, both of which many do, here. Not that I am
advocating any of these, I agree they are all non historic.
%
Alexander
That is a lovely fishing tale, and could this mean that Minikins
were smaller than previously thought: "beyond any hair for strength and
smallness".
%
Regards
Anthony
__________________________________________________________________
De : Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
A : Edward Martin <e...@gamutstrings.com>; Anthony Hind
<agno3ph...@yahoo.com>; Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@verizon.net>
Cc : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Envoye le : Mer 6 octobre 2010, 14h 57min 48s
Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon?
But, as I understand Anthony, they are not using advocating 'carbon'
strings but something even less dense than modern nylon!
MH
--- On Wed, 6/10/10, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@verizon.net> wrote:
From: Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@verizon.net>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon?
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Edward Martin"
<e...@gamutstrings.com>, "Anthony Hind" <agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 12:40
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> This seems a very retrograde step. Surely if we are wishing to hear
> something even approaching how the Old Ones sounded we ought to
> eschew treble strings which are so very different from what they
had.
Quite a few of the Current Ones far exceed the Old Ones, methinks...
> Clearly gut was generally used for trebles and there's no reason to
> suppose their density has changed significantly since then - in
short a
> material close to gut, if not gut, ought to be our goal for these
> strings rather than significantly lower density, and hence thicker
(and
> plummier sounding), strings.
Or thuddier ans squeekier, to some.
> Of course it's quite possible these particular players to which you
> refer don't wish to try and achieve this sort of sound and quite
like
> the modern guitar type tone......
There is nothing "guitar type" in the tone of carbon on lutes.
So until the improvement of gut technology that would some day assure
stability, intonation and economic justification we'd be using carbon.
RT
> --- On Tue, 5/10/10, Anthony Hind <[2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: Anthony Hind <[3]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon?
> To: "Edward Martin" <[4...@gamutstrings.com>
> Cc: [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:24
>
> Dear Ed and All
> For the reason you state below :
> %
> > The density of carbon is so much
> > more than gut, therefore a smaller size is appropriate, around
a
> 0.38
> > or so. Because of the need for a smaller diameter, the sound
is
> > certainly more sharp sounding.
> >
> > ed
> %
> two lutenists on the French list, who have adopted synthetic
strings
> for their stability, (rather than just for their low cost), and
who
> are
> ready to experiment to achieve the sound they are looking for,
have
> adopted very low density Titanium Nylon fishing lines for their
top
> strings, which they claim give a thicker, and therefore, sweeter
> warmer
> sounding top string for the same tension, compared to high
density
> KF
> carbon (which they use for their Meanes) or even compared to
> slightly
> higher density nylon.
> %
> They liked the sound of the old nylgut (with its density close
to
> gut),
> but claimed that it tended to break too easilly (which
presumably
> has
> been resolved with the latest version)..
> %
> In fact, they were looking for a sound similar to that which is
> achieved with titanium nylon guitar strings, but these do not
exist
> in
> diameters suitable for the lute.
> It would seem that such a string can be found in a suitable
diameter
> (0,35 to 0,50) in fishing line, under the name, Nylon Powerline
> Titanium; but there is also Asari Falcon titanium G2, which
might be
> suitable.
> (for those interested these are special fishing lines for surf
> casting)
> %
> FranAS:ois Pizette gave the following comparative table of
densities
> (which I have not checked out):
> %
> titanium nylon :1.04
> nylon: 1.12
> perlon: 1.22
> nylgut: 1.3
> gut: 1.36
> KF pvf: 1.81
> %
> FranAS:ois actually sent me a trial string for my Renaissance
lute,
> but
> I never got round to trying it out, myself. I had just begun
> experimenting a Kathedral gut top string at the time, so I
passed it
> on
> to a friend who was using a nylon top string, and I believe he
found
> the Titanium Nylon quite good, but a little "too sweet".
> Nevertheless,
> he kept it on for a time, so it may not have been at all bad to
his
> taste.
> %
> As you say, string density determines the diameter, and
presumably,
> all
> things being equal, 'thinner than nylon' could lead to a sharper
> tone,
> while thicker could lead to a sweeter one. However, FranAS:ois
> Pizette
> claimed he heard the carbon top string as "colder", and the
titanium
> nylon as "warmer".
> Nevertheless, relative top string thickness also plays a role in
> terms
> of feel and playability. It is not easy to "dig into" a thin
string,
> although an over thick string could possibly become too damped.
> %
> A comparison between Alliance Savrez carbon and Addario
> Titanium-nylon
> can be heard here on a Ukelele in this You/Tube video (if you
have
> the
> patience, as there are two other strings tested):
> [1][1][6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
> %
> One player's comments on this test seem interesting. He says it
is
> more
> the feel of the Titanium Nylon he prefers than the sound
difference
> with the Savarez:
> "You were the one that goti>>? me into Savarez strings, though I
> still
> prefer my D'Addrios only because they are thicker and give me a
> little
> more "feel" under my fingers." (a Ukele player)
> %
> Is this not why some Baroque lutenist gut users prefer a lower
> diapason
> (say 392 over 415, with the same tension). This also gives a
> thicker
> top string, with more material to "dig into"?
> %
> I think this question may be just as interesting for gut as for
> synthetics users.
> While personally, I have been experimenting with the sound and
feel
> of
> gut in relation to hypotheses about historic strings, I am happy
to
> report on these synthetic string user's experiments, attempting
to
> achieve a better sound and playability with their choice of
strings.
> Best regards
> Anthony
> ---- Message d'origine ----
> >De : "Edward Martin" <[2][7...@gamutstrings.com>
> >A : "Edward Mast" <[3][8]nedma...@aol.com>;
> > "Roman Turovsky" <[4][9]r.turov...@verizon.net>
> >Objet : [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings?
> >Date : 04/10/2010 15:10:06 CEST
> >Copie A : "Paul Kieffer"
<[5][10]paul.nicholas.kief...@gmail.com>;
> > "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[6][11]brai...@osu.edu>;
> > [7][12]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> >
> >No, it would have too much tension. The density of carbon is so
> much
> > more than gut, therefore a smaller size is appropriate, around
a
> 0.38
> > or so. Because of the need for a smaller diameter, the sound
is
> > certainly more sharp sounding.
> >
> > ed
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 07:50 AM 10/4/2010, Edward Mast wrote:
> > >The .40-.41 mm diameter line sounds like it would be suitable
for
> > >the top course, yes?
> >
> >
> >
> > Edward Martin
> > 2817 East 2nd Street
> > Duluth, Minnesota 55812
> > e-mail: [8][13...@gamutstrings.com
> > voice: (218) 728-1202
> >
[2][9][14]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
> > [3][10][15]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
[4][11][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> --
> References
> 1. [12][17]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
> 2.
[13][18]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
> 3. [14][19]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
> 4.
[15][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. [21]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
> 2.
[22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstrings.com
> 3.
[23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nedma...@aol.com
> 4.
[24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@verizon.net
> 5.
>
[25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=paul.nicholas.kieffer@
gmail.com
> 6. [26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
> 7.
[27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 8.
[28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstrings.com
> 9. [29]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
> 10. [30]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
> 11. [31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 12. [32]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
> 13. [33]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
> 14. [34]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
> 15. [35]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo.com
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo.com
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstrings.com
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstrings.com
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nedma...@aol.com
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@verizon.net
10.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=paul.nicholas.kief...@gmail.com
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstrings.com
14. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
15. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
17. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
18. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
19. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
21. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstrings.com
23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nedma...@aol.com
24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@verizon.net
25.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=paul.nicholas.kief...@gmail.com
26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
28. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstrings.com
29. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
30. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
32. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
33. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
34. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
35. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
