There is a very instructive study about this picture: Susan foister et al.: making & meaning / holbein´s ambassadors. National gallary company, london & yale university press. 2001.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Jaroslaw Lipski Gesendet: Mittwoch, 9. Februar 2011 23:02 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy Anthony, I agree, it is possible that Holbein painted the ambassador's lute. However, there is some inconsistency in the way he treated details. Some of them are very accurate (like the music), some are not (the globe). On the other hand we don't know who was wrong Holbein or the drawing on the globe (they didn't have computers then and we don't know who was a cartographer). If he was able to depict proportions of string gauges, then why suddenly he lost all his patience while painting the bridge holes ? One can see that he used very small diameter brushes, so there wouldn't have been any problem, had he seen proper size holes on the lute. Maybe he was not a lute expert, but I think he just saw big holes on the instrument. What was the history of that instrument?. Maybe the owner changed stringing for lighter one, but it's difficult to imagine such a thick gut to fit the hole on 6c and to sound reasonably well. Hmm....really makes me wonder. All best Jaroslaw W dniu 2011-02-09 16:02, Anthony Hind pisze: > Yes of course you are right about the painting not necessarily being > accurate. Although Val's arguments seem rather good to make us think > it was the ambassador's lute. > > Generally, I think lute makers use as small a hole as they can get > away with (at least they seem to do so now). Whenever I have changed > to a thicker string types (change of pitch diapason, for example) I > have had to have the hole widened. Lute makers don't seem to allow for > this. I suppose the smaller the hole, the stronger the bridge? > Although, the larger the number of courses and the bigger the basses, > the more important that would become, perhaps? > > So I suppose the thinness of the strings in relation to the holes > doesn't make much sense. You are right that at least on later Baroque > lutes th small size of the holes has been used to argue for loaded > strings, but possibly not on a lute like this. I wonder? > Anthony > > > > > > > ----- Message d'origine ---- > De : Jarosław Lipski<jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> > À : "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Envoyé le : Mer 9 février 2011, 12h 18min 24s > Objet : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy > > I wonder to what extent we can rely on painter's accuracy...e.g.. big > bridge holes. As far as I can remember it was said that the evidence > suggests narrow BH which was to support the loaded strings theory. On > Holbein's painting we have enormous holes in comparison to the string > gauges on the lute. Would a painter bother about realistic hole > diameter ? The same with high action. No one could examine that lute > if it was playable, or was a professional instrument.....or maybe it > was just a prop. On the other hand one of my lutes have an equal > fretting and is very easy to play. > > JL > > > W dniu 2011-02-09 09:49, Martyn Hodgson pisze: >> Dear Anthony, >> >> Thanks for this. On further reflection some other aspects come >> to mind: >> >> 1. Most particularly, the difference between precision (the number of >> significant figures to which something is measured) and accuracy (how >> near the measurement is to the object being measured). For example a >> lute treble (of notional diameter, say, 0.49mm) may be given with a >> measurement of 4.8743215689mm, which is certainly very precise (to 1 in >> 10,000millionth) but very inaccurate, or with a diameter of 0.5mm, >> which is much more accurate but not very precise. >> In the context of Holbein's wonderful painting, this may be translated >> as saying that he represented items with great precision but, perhaps, >> not always quite accurately. Thus, for example, the frets seem very >> finely executed but perhaps the graduation was not anything that >> bothered him (or his assistant). Other features which we find >> troubling/interesting (eg strings coming off the top of the bridge, nut >> rebate) may also be painted with great precision but maybe not with >> total accuracy.... >> >> 2. Leaving this idea aside and my earlier speculation that equal frets >> might be an attempt to counter a lifting neck or to make a Bray >> harp-like sound (Capirola), we should not overlook the possibility that >> fretting in the England in the early 16th century WAS of equal size: >> the likely repertoire might not be so virtuosic as to demand the finest >> set (lowest 'action') to the lute (as Dowland and later >> required). >> >> Martyn >> >> >> --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hind<agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> From: Anthony Hind<agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >> Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting [Google Art project] frets >> and bridge >> To: "Martyn Hodgson"<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >> Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 18:02 >> >> Thanks Martyn, I should have given you more time to think about this. >> "At a glance you're right, the fretting does look all the same >> diameter! Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and >> that's >> all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done >> so >> as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper >> frets." >> Right, if we use equal frets to compensate for a raised kneck, then we >> would use >> equal but thin frets? Would you think this is the case, here? >> Dowland suggests "Fret 1 and 2: shoudl have the value of the >> countertenor, ie >> 4th course? >> Of course it is hard to evaluate from a painting and with zoom, and >> also the >> frets are double, but the thickness of the top fret (and all the >> others) looks >> about equivalent to the fourth string. >> However, I think it might be a little silly to be too literal in >> measures from a >> painting. >> The thing which made me feel that the lute might be deliberately chosen >> with a >> problematic setting (either kneck pulled up, or badly fretted) is the >> way the >> other "instruments" are said to be misaligned, according to the >> articles I have >> glanced over; but I agree with Lex that it is hard to say anything for >> sure. >> It is rather that I read several lutenists mentioning the thin strings, >> as >> though we could be sure this is good practise of the time. >> regards >> Anthony >> My earlier response to Anthony: >> Anthony >> Sorry to delay answering - I will reply to this but if you're in a >> rush >> then send it off. I need to spend proper time studying the picture. >> At a glance you're right, the fretting does look all the same >> diameter! Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and >> that's >> all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done >> so >> as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper >> frets. Alternatively, some early writer (Gerle?) mentions an effect >> of >> strings buzzing on frets (I think to cut through like a Bray harp) - >> could this lute be set up to play like this? >> Also the strings do indeed seem to come from the top of the bridge >> (or >> almost) - this is not really possible since in practice since simple >> statics will make the point half way between the top of the string >> hole >> and top of the bridge. However it could be that the maker has made >> the >> distance VERY small (looks a bit like this); also if the tension is >> fairly low then static friction can hold the strings in a higher (or >> lowever) position if required. Do some tests yourself and see how >> easy >> or hard it is to make a string leave from the top of the bridge. >> rgds >> Martyn >> --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hind<[1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> From: Anthony Hind<[2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >> Subject: Tr : Re : [LUTE] [off list] Google Art project >> To: "Ed Durbrow"<[3]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp>, "Martyn Hodgson" >> <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >> Cc: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 14:35 >> Dear Ed, Martyn, and All, >> As you lecture on this painting, and until now, I have only >> given it an >> admirative, but casual look, may I formulate a few questions about >> the >> significance of the stringing and the fretting, about which you may >> be >> able to >> enlighten me? >> The fretting appears to be equal and not stepped (which is quite >> different from >> Dowland's indications), but is this significant of typical >> stringing >> of the >> time? >> It could be that zooming in alters the perspective and gives too >> much >> importance to this detail which the painter might have considered >> insignificant; but it might also have been highly significant of the >> practise >> of the time (around 1533), but not necessarily of good practise, as >> it >> was >> deemed by those knowledgeable in luting. >> The detail, as you say, is indeed extraordinary, which tends >> to >> give the >> (possibly mistaken?) impression that the painting of the lute might >> be >> almost >> as accurate as a photograph. Although, photographic accuracy is not >> necessarily >> informative per se, as the lute could still be painted from memory >> (doubtful?) >> or an example of just one man's stringing, or even a lute strung up >> as >> a >> painter's prop and not for playing; but in any case, certain >> details >> of >> instruments in the painting (musical or otherwise) could have been >> focussed on >> (at the expense of others), tweaked or altered, to conform with the >> complex >> primary symbolic message conveyed. >> For example, it seems to have been established that some of the >> instruments are >> misaligned, as possible symbols of impending chaos, or aligned to >> the >> date of >> Good Friday 1533. >> "But cleaning of the picture has established that each one of the >> instruments >> to the right of the celestial globe - a cylindrical shepherd's >> dial, >> two >> quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and a torquetum - are all curiously >> misaligned >> for use in a northerly latitude. This is unlikely to have been an >> oversight on >> the artist's part, since one of his closest friends in London was >> the >> astronomer Nikolaus Kratzer (...)" >> "The misaligned instruments are surely emblems of chaos, of the >> heavens out of >> joint. The fact that they were intended to be read symbolically is >> suggested by >> the generally encrypted nature of the whole painting and confirmed >> by >> the lute >> with a broken string on the shelf below (...)" >> [1][6]http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-gam >> e-1291 >> 477.html >> That the musical instruments are defective, in that one string of >> the >> lute is >> broken and one of the flutes are missing from the case of flutes is >> evident; >> but might it not also be possible that Holbein expected the >> would-be >> viewer >> (just as for the sundial) to recognize that this instrument was >> not >> ideally >> strung, according to the principles of the time (i.e. if those >> principles were >> already the same as those at J. Dowland's time, around 1610)? >> I note that the frets (fre t1 to fret 8), apart from being double, >> would appear >> to be almost equal in thickness. >> At the same time, it would appear that the strings are set as high >> as >> possible in relation to the bridge-holes. Could this raised string >> height have >> been used to compensate for the resulting raised fret height at >> fret >> 8 (due >> to the equal fretting)? >> The presence of both these features together, could argue against >> the >> likelihood that the lute was fretted with unequal frets, and that >> the >> painter >> had simply abstracted away from this; but possibly indicates that >> the >> painter >> is "describing" an actual lute strung in this particular way; >> although >> if we >> accept >> that, can we be sure that this was a general practise at that time >> (1533), or >> just one man's "lazy" habits, or more interestingly a pattern that >> those in the >> know would recognize as a badly strung lute which would be >> difficult >> to play. >> If significant, this certainly would not correspond to the later >> suggestion by >> Dowland (as pointed out by Martyn Hodgson), in John Dowland's >> 'OTHER >> NECESSARIE Observations....' Varietie (1610). Here Dowland relates >> fret sizes >> to strings of the lute, >> Fret 1 and 2: countertenor ie 4th course >> 3 and 4: as Great Meanes ie 3rd >> 5 and 6: as Small Meanes ie 2nd >> 7, 8 and 9: as Trebles ie 1st >> (PS I wrote the whole of this message, but then realised there was >> a >> flaw in my >> reasoning. If the general tendency around 1533 was to have equal >> frets, and >> this called for raised strings at the bridge, why not simply make >> the >> bridge >> higher? The raised strings at the bridge would have to be >> compensating >> for >> something that was not expected when the lute was given its bridge. >> Indeed, I used this solution on my Renaissance lute when I first >> added >> loaded >> strings, as their large movement tended to touch the frets. Thus >> perhaps the >> expected >> fretting by the lute maker was frets decreasing in thickness, and >> the >> raising >> at the bridge a compensation for the present "poor" equal fretting. >> I also agree with you Ed, that the strings appear rather thin, >> particularly >> relative to the lute holes, and even the smalles treble string, >> might >> be thinner >> than the 0.42 postulated by Martin Shepherd, as being the smallest >> possible >> string at the time (if not made from gut strips); but I would point >> out that >> some of these features, thin strings, for example, might also have >> been >> chosen >> by the artist to underline the fragility of the harmony they >> represent, and >> the bolder >> thickness of the transverse frets might then have served to >> contrast >> this. >> In this case the pattern chosen, equal thick frets and thin strings >> (possibly >> both not ideal), might have been there to underline a symbolism, >> which >> is also >> present in so many other structural elements in the painting, >> rather >> than >> significant of a general practise. >> These are just my attempts at organising my thoughts and perhaps >> simply >> show my >> ignorance; indeed, perhaps I am the only one to see the fretting as >> equal; or >> many of you use equal fretting for a lute that has a particular >> problem >> (I seem >> to remember that might be the case), if so please do excuse my >> "balbutiements". >> Regards >> Anthony >> ----- Message d'origine ---- >> De : Ed Durbrow<[2][7]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> >> A : LuteNet list<[3][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Envoye le : Sam 5 fevrier 2011, 3h 32min 30s >> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Google Art project >> I missed the beginning of this thread. Luckily I checked the >> link. >> Wow! >> I'm so happy to have this link. What detail! I use this picture >> in >> my >> academic lecture class at Saitama U. (not teaching one this year >> or >> next unfortunately). It is always good for two or three 90 minute >> lectures, what with all the tangents I go off on. >> Those are quite thin strings on that lute. I wonder if he was >> using >> carbon fiber. :-) >> [3][1][4][9]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/ >> the-am >> bas >> sadors >> Ed Durbrow >> Saitama, Japan >> [2][5][10]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >> [3][6][11]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >> -- >> References >> 1. >> [7][12]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-a >> mbas >> 2. [8][13]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >> 3. [9][14]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [10][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> -- >> References >> 1. >> [16]http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-129 >> 1477.html >> 2. >> [17]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edurb...@sea.plala.or. >> jp >> 3. >> [18]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 4. >> [19]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am >> 5. [20]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >> 6. [21]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >> 7. >> [22]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas >> 8. [23]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >> 9. [24]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >> 10. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo.com >> 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo.com >> 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp >> 4. >> http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk >> 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 6. http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291 >> 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp >> 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 9. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am >> 10. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >> 11. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >> 12. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas >> 13. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >> 14. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >> 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 16. >> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291477.html >> 17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp >> 18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 19. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am >> 20. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >> 21. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >> 22. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas >> 23. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >> 24. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >> 25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------- > Tekst wstawiony przez Panda GP 2011: > > Jesli nie chcesz otrzymywac podobnych wiadomosci, wybierz ponizszy > link, aby zaklasyfikowac ten e-mail jako SPAM: > http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_273&SPAM=true&path=C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\user\Ustawienia%20lokalne\Dane%20aplikacji\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Global%20Protection%202011\AntiSpam > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >
