Dear all, just an innocent question: where can you find music by Saint-Luc in the "early style", I mean the more or less French style before the more or less "galant" oriented style? I suppose - by reading this interesting discussion - that there are two styles of Saint-Luc(s). Are there?
Best, Arto On Sat, 2 Apr 2011 14:14:14 -0400, "Roland Hayes" <rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote: > MH you should feel free to suggest and speculate but until you have a > cold hard fact you should continue to label your speculations as > such. For the researchers AJN is referring to, their research has > reached an end for now on there being only one St luc. enough!! > __________________________________________________________________ > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Martyn Hodgson > Sent: Sat 4/2/2011 3:45 AM > To: A. J. Ness > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Saint-Luc again. Was: Foscarini Experience > > Dear Arthur, > Many thanks for this: I'm acquainted with Vendrix's work (and his > credentials!) and was therefore rather dismayed he seemed so > absolutely > convinced that the very elderly S Luc (born 1616) was the same > person > as journeyed across Europe to play in a concert and composed the > works > in the Prague and Vienna MSs in an early 18th century style. Others, > as > well as I, have questioned this and suggested a son or some other > relation (or even non-relation) may be another lutenist S Luc. As > said > earlier, my current speculation is the elder S Luc's oldest son > (also > named Jacques). > You say that Vendrix states that 'there is no evidence that S Luc's > sons were musicians'. It is certainly the case that he says this > but > he then goes on to imply by a dodgy logic that this means they were > definitely not musicians. But, of course, a lack of evidence works > both > ways: there is no evidence that they were not musicians - simply > that > we haven't uncovered any as yet. This, essentially, is my reason for > suggesting that more research is required and, certainly, that one > should refrain from mere assertion which, as you know, can so easily > become generally accepted; especially if from the pen of a scholar > like > M Vendrix. > I take your point that 90+ isn't at death's door these days and I'm > sorry Arthur, that you're upset about this - but, you may agree, > 90+ > was pretty exceptional for 1700. However more than this, I suggest > we > need to be very careful in assuming the elder S Luc was the S Luc of > the two MSs: it might be the case that he was, but until then I > suggest > we need to keep the matter open. > Finally, I don't know about 'harm' being done, but if assumptions > are > tested and have to be justified that seems to me to be a very good > thing. > regards > Martyn > --- On Fri, 1/4/11, A. J. Ness <arthurjn...@verizon.net> wrote: > From: A. J. Ness <arthurjn...@verizon.net> > Subject: [LUTE] Saint-Luc again. Was: Foscarini Experience > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Monica Hall" > <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 15:49 > Dear Martyn, > The problem is not that the level of Saint-Luc research is poor. > It's > rather > high, and dates back to the 19th century. And it is simply not true > that > the principal writers are generalists. > Philippe Vendrix, a lutenist, is one of France's leading > musicologists. > He is dean of the Centre d'Etudes Superiores de la Renaissance, > He is Director of Research for the Centre National de la Recherche > Scientifique, > And he is editor-in-chief of Acta Musicologica (the journal of the > International Musicological Society). > His partner in Saint-Luc research is Manuel Couveur, Professor of > Musicology > at the Free University of Brussels. > Between them, they really have all bases covered, French and > Flemish, > so to > speak (to use an American baseball metaphor). They are positioned > not > only > by expertise, but also geographically to examine archival records > related to > Saint-Luc. > Brussels, may I remind you, was Jacques de Saint-Luc's musical home > town. > He was not French. He was trained at court with ITALIAN and SPANISH > musicians, under the director of chamber music, Giuseppe Zamponi. > Jacques > performed villancicos at court when he was 13 (was he a > Wunderkind?), > and > the > court owned vihuelas. His teacher may have been court > lutenist/theorbist > Philippe > Vermeulen, who as a youngster was sent by the court to Italy to > "perfect" > his abilities on theorbo with Piccinini. > The "cantabile" of his style that Baron remarked > about, was there from the Italian influences of his training. He > didn't > write 200 pieces all in Vienna. That he wrote so much music is > accounted > for by his attaining the age of at least 96. > I think I resent more than anything your suggestion that he was too > old > and > feebled to write music and travel, and using that as an excuse to > attribute > his works to his sons. And he was not in his 90s when he traveled to > Berlin. > He was 84. The sensation of his playing may have been due to his > age. > Was Verdi feeble-minded when he wrote Otello and Falstaff? What > about > Stravinsky? > One would never have expected him to end his career writing serial > music. > THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT SAINT-LUC'S SONS WERE > MUSICIANS. > And you can bet Couveur and Vendrix looked high and low to find > them. > The > Saint-Lucs were NOT a dynastic family of musicians. > Enough for now. The harm is done, and Couveur and Vendrix have > already > begun > to set the record straight. Our responsibility is to realize what > happened > as a result of those fictional original New Grove and 1963 MGG > articles. > The recent New Grove Saint-Luc article has been completely > re-written. > I > haven't seen the latest MGG. Arthur. > ============================================== > To: "A. J. Ness" <[1]arthurjn...@verizon.net>; "Monica Hall" > <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:59 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > > > Well - as you both already well know - the current level of > scholarship > > is so poor that the elder and younger Saint Jacques generally > appear as > > one. > > > > But the real issue is that the real passion and merit of this > music > is > > lost by such a generalist approach. > > > > ythfo > > > > Martyn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 31/3/11, Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > wrote: > > > > From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > To: "A. J. Ness" <[6]arthurjn...@verizon.net> > > Cc: "Lutelist" <[7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Date: Thursday, 31 March, 2011, 21:01 > > > > Don't even mention Grove - as far as the baroque guitar is > concerned it > > is full of errors.<sigh, sigh. sigh> > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. J. Ness" > > <[1][8]arthurjn...@verizon.net> > > To: "Monica Hall" <[2][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:56 PM > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > > That's what makes me angry about the Jacques de Saint-Luc > article > in > > New Grove (first ed. and MGG 1963). Musica Rara has puibo. all > the > > Suittes dessus and bassus, andattributres them one by one to > three > > different composers named St.Luc.<sigh> > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall" > > <[3][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > > To: "Monica Hall" <[4][11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > > Cc: "Lutelist" <[5][12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:23 PM > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > > > > > > > >> Yes - the music is fun and I really enjoyed hearing the solo > pieces > > too - but liner notes are just nonsense. They have just made > it > all > > up as a kind of concept to hang the recording on. > > >> > > >> Really it's irresponsible - because what they have said is > now > being > > repeated as if it were true. > > >> > > >> What a world we live in..... > > >> > > >> Monica > > >> > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall" > > <[6][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > >> To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[7][14]brai...@osu.edu> > > >> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:20 PM > > >> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > >> > > >> > > >>> > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" > > <[8][15]brai...@osu.edu> > > >>> To: "'Lutelist'" <[9][16]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > >>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:12 PM > > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> I quite like that CD (especially the guitar solos that they > opted > > to record > > >>>> as solos), but the liner notes do strike me as a bit > "whimsical." > > >>>> > > >>>> Eugene > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>> From: [10][17]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > [mailto:[11][18]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > > >>>>> Behalf Of Monica Hall > > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:10 PM > > >>>>> To: Jean-Marie Poirier > > >>>>> Cc: Lutelist > > >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Wow - that was quick work. That must be the picture. > But > is > > there any > > >>>>> evidence that the lutenist is Foscarini? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> To be honest - when I first read the liner notes to the CD > I > > thought they > > >>>>> were a work of fiction. But perhaps I am missing > something. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Monica > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>>>> From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[12][19]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> > > >>>>> To: "Monica Hall" <[13][20]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:05 PM > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Foscarini Experience > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Monica, > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Would that be the picture you are looking for ? > > >>>>> > If yes, it's just across the street, VAM ;-) ! > > >>>>> > Here's a link with details : > > >>>>> > > > > [14][21][1]http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeg > anck-in- > > >>>>> brussels-on/ > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > All the best, > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Jean-Marie > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > ================================= > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > == En reponse au message du 31-03-2011, 20:54:29 == > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> >> I came across this CD by the group Foscarini > Experience > > with the > > >>>>> title > > >>>>> >> "Bon voyage" some time ago. In the liner notes it > > mentions an > > >>>>> >> illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon > playing > the > > lute > > >>>>> >> together with a girl with a triangle and a violone > player > > which > > >>>>> >> apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an > illustration of > > a >> feast > > >>>>> >> held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the > wife of > > the > > >>>>> >> Archduke Albert. > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> Does anyone know anything about this illustration and > > whether the > > >>>>> >> lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have > done a > > bit >> of > > >>>>> >> surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> Monica > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> -- > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >>To get on or off this list see list information at > > >>>>> > >>[15][22][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > ======================================== > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. > > [23][3]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjness@verizon > .ne > t > > 2. > > [24][4]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co. > uk > > 3. > > [25][5]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co. > uk > > 4. > > [26][6]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co. > uk > > 5. > > [27][7]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e > du > > 6. > > [28][8]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co. > uk > > 7. > [29][9]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu > > 8. > [30][10]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu > > 9. > > [31][11]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth. > edu > > 10. > > > > [32][12]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-arc@cs.dartmo > uth. > edu > > 11. > > > > [33][13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-arc@cs.dartmo > uth. > edu > > 12. > > [34][14]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jmpoirier2@wanadoo > .fr > > 13. > > [35][15]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co > .uk > > 14. > > [36][16]http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeganck > -in- > > 15. > [37][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > -- > References > 1. > [18]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.ne > t > 2. > [19]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 3. > [20]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. > [21]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 5. > [22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 6. > [23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.ne > t > 7. > [24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 8. > [25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.ne > t > 9. > [26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 10. > [27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 11. > [28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 12. > [29]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 13. > [30]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 14. 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