Hi, David and all.
First, bravo on your efforts, David! More citterns = more fun.
A long time ago I built several historical citterns with some success,
one still in use by Mark Cudek. Looking at your photos, I think the
intonation problems involved with scalloped fingerboards might be
exacerbated in your case by using modern fret wire (at least it looks
like that in the photo).
Historically, cittern frets were made with brass (or other hard
material) bars inlaid into the fretboard, with shallow scallops (I made
them about 1/32 inch or less deep) serving to raise them above the
"surface" of the fingerboard. I used to set them into the board,
surface it flush, and then sand out the scallops with a small drum
sander. This way, the scallop serves to make the intonation steadier,
since the wood slopes right up to the back of the fret, making the
distortion minimal when you place your fingers near the fret. If you
put modern raised frets on top of the scallops, you not only lose this
advantage, you make the situation worse. I'll try to send you a photo
with details of the frets. There used to be several working drawings
of historical citterns available which showed this clearly.
I'm not sure how the deeply scalloped fretboards of early 20th century
German lute-guitars relate to this.
I also had special tuning pegs with small diameter barrels made to
lessen tuning problems, but unfortunately it may be too late for that
in your case.
Another aside: I'm sure more research has been done since I was up on
this, but as I remember carved and built-up citterns seem to have
coexisted for quite some time in the 16th century, with a small amount
of evidence for a South/North divide, rather than the historical
development of style that you assume. Somewhat surprisingly, I seem to
recall that of the surviving examples, the larger were carved, while
the smaller ones were built. It looks like the new Lute in Europe book
people have been abuzz about might have quite a bit of new and newly
coordinated information on this.
Also, just curious, but what kind of spike lutes do you have experience
making? I play shamisen and san xian.
I hope this helps.
Best to all, and keep playing,
Chris.
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:40 AM, David Smith
<[1]david.smith...@gmail.com> wrote:
Definitely not historical. My experience is in building spike
lutes
(where the sound box takes little or no load from the string
tension),
so this is just me staying in my comfort zone. I suppose there may
have
been instruments built like this as "carved from a single piece of
wood" medieval instruments gave way to piece-built renaissance
ones,
but it's not documented as far as I know.
It has no effect at all on the sound except, perhaps to increase
sustain since the resulting structure may be stiffer. On an
instrument
with no sound post, vibration of the back is not a significant
part of
the sound (and even if it were, the carry-through doesn't actually
touch the back). The volume of the carry-through subtracts from
the
sound chamber volume and, thus, raises the Helmholtz resonance
central
pitch a tiny amount... but its volume is no more than the volume
of the
back bracing on an historical instrument.
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Bruno Fournier
<[1][2]br...@estavel.org>
wrote:
Not sure about your neck carry through.A looks a bit bulky and
in
my
opion will affect the sound quite a bit.A A Is this based on
historical
construction?
A
Bruno
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 9:02 AM, David Smith
<[1][2][3]david.smith...@gmail.com> wrote:
A The pics are still there. The URL may have wrapped in your
email.
Try
A this one:
A [1][2][3][4]http://tinyurl.com/3t6dous
A I decided to go with ET tuning for this one. (ET is, after
all, a
kind
A of meantone, lol) I'm glad I did because it's hard enough to
tune
as
A is.
A On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:45 AM, WALSH STUART
<[2][3][4][5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
A wrote:
A A On 25 July 2011 21:00, David Smith
<[1][3][4][5][6]david.smith...@gmail.com>
A wrote:
A A A A I finished building my cittern this morning. Now
that
I've played
A A A it
A A A A (briefly before I had to leave for work), I think
metal
strings
A A A plus
A A A A wooden tuning pegs plus a scalloped fingerboard is
a
really bad
A A A idea.
A A A A The tiniest tuning movement changes the pitch
several
steps. Any
A A A but
A A A A the lightest pressure behind a fret bends the pitch
up a
A semitone.
A A A I
A A A A wonder why our renaissance forebears went that way.
A A A A OTOH, I love the sound.
A A A A (Pictures of the build process:
A A
[1][2][4][5][6][7]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666
741
860
.60
A A 013
A A A .21099
A A A A 1832256377&type=1 )
A A Have you taken the pictures down? I can't access them
A A I've just been playing a bandora on loan for a couple of
months. Like
A A your cittern the bandora has metal strings, wooden tuning
pegs
and
A A scalloped fingerboard (AND non ET) Tuning was a problem
for me
too -
A A but I suppose you will get used to it. So: citterns of
all
kinds,
A A orpharions, bandoras and maybe some other plucked
instruments
had
A wire
A A strings and wooden pegs (probably non ET but don't know
if
they all
A had
A A scalloped fingerboards). Players must have coped somehow.
A A When citterns became fashionable again in the 18th
century
(English
A A guitars, cistre ou guitharre allemandes etc), various
alternatives to
A A pegs emerged, watchkey, tuning mechanisms. But pegs were
still
used
A A too.
A A Stuart
A A A References
A A A A 1.
A A
[3][5][6][7][8]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741
860
.60
013
A A .21
A A A 0991832256377&type=1
A A A To get on or off this list see list information at
A A A A
[4][6][7][8][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm
l
A A A --
A A References
A A A 1. mailto:[7][8][9][10]david.smith...@gmail.com
A A A 2.
A A
[8][9][10][11]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2328036667418
60.6
0013
.21
A A 099
A A 3.
A
[9][10][11][12]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741
860.
6001
3.21099
A 1832256377&type=1
A A A 4.
[10][11][12][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.ht
ml
A --
References
A 1. [12][13][14]http://tinyurl.com/3t6dous
A 2. mailto:[13][14][15]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
A 3. mailto:[14][15][16]david.smith...@gmail.com
A 4.
[15][16][17]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860
.600
13
A 5.
[16][17][18]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860
.600
13.2
1
A 6.
[17][18][19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
A 7. mailto:[18][19][20]david.smith...@gmail.com
A 8.
[19][20][21]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860
.600
13.2
1099
A 9.
[20][21][22]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860
.600
13.2
10991832256377&type=1
A 10.
[21][22][23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
A
Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
A
[22][23][24]www.estavel.org
A
--
References
1. mailto:[24][25]david.smith...@gmail.com
2. [25][26]http://tinyurl.com/3t6dous
3. mailto:[26][27]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
4. mailto:[27][28]david.smith...@gmail.com
5.
[28][29]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60
6.
[29][30]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.600
13
7.
[30][31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
8. mailto:[31][32]david.smith...@gmail.com
9.
[32][33]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.600
13.21
10.
[33][34]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.600
13.2
1099
11.
[34][35]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12. [35][36]http://tinyurl.com/3t6dous
13. mailto:[36][37]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
14. mailto:[37][38]david.smith...@gmail.com
15.
[38][39]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.600
13
16.
[39][40]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.600
13.2
1
17.
[40][41]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
18. mailto:[41][42]david.smith...@gmail.com
19.
[42][43]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.600
13.2
1099
20.
[43][44]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.600
13.2
10991832256377&type=1
21.
[44][45]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
22. [45][46]http://www.estavel.org/
--
References
1. mailto:[47]br...@estavel.org
2. mailto:[48]david.smith...@gmail.com
3. [49]http://tinyurl.com/3t6dous
4. mailto:[50]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
5. mailto:[51]david.smith...@gmail.com
6. [52]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860
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9. mailto:[55]david.smith...@gmail.com
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11.
[57]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.6001
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14. mailto:[60]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
15. mailto:[61]david.smith...@gmail.com
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17.
[63]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
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19. mailto:[65]david.smith...@gmail.com
20.
[66]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
21.
[67]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
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23. [69]http://www.estavel.org/
24. mailto:[70]david.smith...@gmail.com
25. [71]http://tinyurl.com/3t6dous
26. mailto:[72]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
27. mailto:[73]david.smith...@gmail.com
28. [74]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60
29.
[75]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013
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31. mailto:[77]david.smith...@gmail.com
32.
[78]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
1
33.
[79]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
1099
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36. mailto:[82]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
37. mailto:[83]david.smith...@gmail.com
38.
[84]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013
39.
[85]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
1
40. [86]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
41. mailto:[87]david.smith...@gmail.com
42.
[88]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
1099
43.
[89]http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
10991832256377&type=1
44. [90]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
45. [91]http://www.estavel.org/
--
References
1. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
2. mailto:br...@estavel.org
3. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
4. http://tinyurl.com/3t6dous
5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
6. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
7. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741
8. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
10. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
11. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.6
12. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860
13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
14. http://tinyurl.com/3t6dous
15. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
16. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
17. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.600
18. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.600
19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
20. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
21. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.600
22. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.600
23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
24. http://www.estavel.org/
25. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
26. http://tinyurl.com/3t6dous
27. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
28. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
29. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60
30. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013
31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
32. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
33. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.21
34. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
35. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
36. http://tinyurl.com/3t6dous
37. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
38. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
39. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013
40. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
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43. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
44. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
45. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
46. http://www.estavel.org/
47. mailto:br...@estavel.org
48. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
49. http://tinyurl.com/3t6dous
50. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
51. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
52. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860
53. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60
54. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
55. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
56. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013
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58. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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61. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
62. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013
63. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
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66. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.2
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68. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
69. http://www.estavel.org/
70. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
71. http://tinyurl.com/3t6dous
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73. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
74. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60
75. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013
76. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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78. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.21
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80. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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82. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
83. mailto:david.smith...@gmail.com
84. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013
85. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.21
86. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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88. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.21099
89.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.232803666741860.60013.210991832256377&type=1
90. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
91. http://www.estavel.org/
