Thank you for that explanation, Martin. Best, Ned On Nov 26, 2011, at 10:03 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote:
> While recommending a unison 6th course, Dowland says that it had been the > usual practice (especially in England) to use octaves, but says this practice > is "now" (in 1610) left. This, together with the internal musical evidence > (my examples from Cutting and Holborne) and Barley's 1596 instructions which > specify octaves on courses 4-6, suggests that most people were using an > octave 6th (at least) in the 1590s or even early 1600s. Of course it is > possible that Dowland himself (perhaps influenced by continental practice) > made the change to unisons earlier, but we have no firm evidence one way or > the other. > > On the subject of alternating thumb/index, it is clear from fingering dots in > various sources (as diverse as Piccinini and the ML lute book) that t-i > alternation was still used for the fastest runs, even when playing > thumb-outside. > > Best wishes, > > Martin > > On 26/11/2011 14:14, Edward Mast wrote: >> Thank you Alan and Martin. Martin, I have been, and am still a bit confused >> by what you have written regarding Dowland and his stringing advice. If, as >> you quote, he stated in 1610 that one should use unison tuning on the 6th >> course, why would octave tuning on that course be recommended for his solo >> music written prior to 1600? >> >> I hope that you - or someone - will gather together in one article the known >> research regarding octave and unison tuning along with assessments of the >> advantages/disadvantages of each. Special attention, I think, should be >> given to the differences between strings of the 1600s and of today, whether >> they be old versus modern gut, or gut versus synthetic. And, should unison >> or octave tuning depend in part on whether ti or to technique is used? >> Certainly, for me, the use of alternating t and i for melodic lines is >> important in making a choice (perhaps more important than it should be). >> >> Best, Ned >> >> >> On Nov 26, 2011, at 8:20 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: >> >>> Thank you, Martin (Eastwell), for this; indeed, in a previous mail I >>> suggested something not unsimilar to what you are saying below (albeit >>> your analysis is more complete). However, I imagined that both changes >>> TI to TO and Bass + Octave to unisson (on certain bass courses) might >>> have coincided, and even be triggered by the arrival of a new bass >>> string, with better high freqency behaviour (low impedance?) also >>> permitting a change from 6c to 7c, and later the supposed 9c of Dowland >>> (etc). >>> I mused that "Together, better basses, TO, and Unisons could have >>> allowed better exploration of the bass register" >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg24565.html >>> However, "trigger" is clearly an exaggeration, as I myself use TI with >>> my 7c Renaissance lute having unissons on 5c, whereas I use TO on my >>> 11c baroque lute. >>> Martin Shepherd also argues that conservative tradition could have >>> caused some (eg Cutting) to hang on to TI, after others (perhaps >>> Dowland) had changed over to TO. Does that mean they also refused any >>> string upgrades? Not necessarilly, I imagine. >>> Your idea that TO brings a clearer sound, thus compensating for the >>> darkness of the unissons, is rather different to mine, and perhaps >>> demonstrably better (not necessarilly precluding the arrival of a >>> better bass string). >>> I agree that with Renaissance TO the thumb is probably not that far >>> from the bridge. Of course, with the later extreme advanced thumb ETO, >>> the fingers are closer to the bridge and the thumb further away (not >>> that this effects your analysis). >>> Best wishes >>> Anthony >>> __________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> De : Martin Eastwell<eastwe...@mac.com> >>> A : Anthony Hind<agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >>> Envoye le : Samedi 26 Novembre 2011 0h14 >>> Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing >>> Hi Anthony >>> Having looked up Martin Shepherd's 2007 post from your link >>> [1]http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19978.html >>> I'm quite convinced by the Holborne and Cutting examples he gives- >>>> Cutting, Galliard, Euing f.29 (Burgers no.22)bar 13: >>>> >>>> -----------------!------------- >>>> -a---a-c-d---b---!------------- >>>> ---d-----------a-!-b-a-b------- >>>> -----------------!------------- >>>> -c---------c-a---!-------a-c--- >>>> -----------------!-d---------d- >>>> >>>> (the two notes on the 5th course in the second bar could be an octave >>>> higher) >>>> >>>> Holborne, Patiencia, Euing f.39v. (aus dem Spring no.23) bar 52: >>>> >>>> --c-----c-------!--- >>>> --c-----c---f---!-a- >>>> --f-e-c-e-f-c-e-!-a- >>>> --------e-------!-b- >>>> ----------------!-c- >>>> --c-------------!--- >>>> (the "f" on the 2nd course resolves onto the upper octave "b" of the >>> 4th >>>> course) >>>> >>>> Dowland, Queen Elizabeth's Galliard, VLL Galliard 2(Poulton no.41) >>> bar 6: >>>> -f--c-d---!-a-----c---a-!--- >>>> -c--a-a---!-a-----c-----!-e- >>>> ----------!-------f-e---!-a- >>>> -e--a-c-a-!-------------!--- >>>> ----c-----!-e-c---------!-c- >>>> -c----a---!-d---c-------!--- >>>> >>>> (the descending scale c4, a4, e5, c5 needs to be an octave higher to >>>> connect with the f3 in the 4/3 suspension at the cadence. Octaves on >>>> courses 4 and 5 solve the problem. Octave on course 5 also allows >>> the >>>> "e" to resolve at the correct octavein the final chord) >>>> >>>> (Yes I know VLL is the very source where Dowland recommends unisons, >>> but >>>> this piece was written before 1591 as it appears in Dd.2.11 as "K >>>> Darcyes Galliard" (f.59) - K.Darcy became Lady Clifton in 1591). >>>> >>>> Sorry about the lack of rhythm signs >>> -less so by the Dowland-I see what he means, but it doesn't sound bad >>> to me. >>> In connection with Cutting and Dowland (or has someone already pointed >>> this >>> out?), it is worth mentioning that William Barley's "A new book of >>> Tabliture" (1596) reprints Le Roy's Instructions, complete with >>> directions >>> for octave stringing on courses 4 to 6, and the lute music in the book >>> is >>> all by either Dowland or Cutting, and for 6 course lute (though the >>> orpharion and bandora sections of the book use 7 courses. >>> My feeling about octave vs. unison stringing is that it is to some >>> extent >>> connected with the change to thumb outside technique. Assuming all gut >>> stringing and thumb under technique, my experience of many years is >>> that >>> lutes with unison stringing sound rather murky. The basses have lost >>> the >>> brightness provided by octave strings, and the warm treble sound >>> inherent in >>> thumb under technique seems to merge with them in a rather >>> unsatisfactory >>> manner. Played thumb out, where the fingers are significantly closer to >>> the >>> bridge (relative to the thumb), the brighter treble seems to be lifted >>> out >>> of the texture by virtue of a different tone colour. The comments in >>> the >>> Stobeus Ms instructions seem to be thinking along the same lines: "For >>> it >>> has been shown to be much better to strike with the thumb outwards. >>> This >>> sounds clearer, crisper and brighter. The other sounds very dull and >>> muffled." >>> This reminds me very much of the sort of things mix engineers in the >>> rock/pop world do. They are very concerned that each instrument in a >>> band >>> should occupy its own space in the frequency spectrum, and not get in >>> each >>> other's way. Often they will electronically equalise sounds to make >>> this >>> work-for example filtering the low frequencies off a strummed acoustic >>> guitar so that it does not conflict with the bass. On its own, the >>> guitar >>> sounds poor, but it "sits better" in the mix. >>> I'll be talking about this and related things at a meeting of the UK >>> Lute >>> society in Feb. >>> Best wishes >>> Martin (Eastwell, not Shepherd!) >>> On 25/11/2011 15:54, "Anthony Hind"<[2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> Bruno, I think it may depend on the stringing you use. Some 5th >>> course >>>> basses really do need octave stringing, but 5c unissons with >>> Venice >>>> Meanes do seem acceptable. >>>> In fact, I adopted this pattern, with unissons from 5c up, because >>> I >>>> assumed it to be a possible historical late renaissance tuning, >>> for a 7 >>>> course lute with the 7th tuned to D ; but didn't quite like the >>> result >>>> with a pair of 5c unisson Lyons. The Lyons would no doubt have >>> been >>>> better with an octave, but what bothered me was a sort of break in >>> the >>>> Meanes area, between the 5c Lyons and the 4c HTs. I wanted a more >>>> homogenous sound for 5c and 4c. >>>> This was the reason for which I adopted Venices, as I could have >>>> Venices unissons both on 5 and 4c (there are no Lyons available >>> for >>>> 4c). I felt the result was both more Meanes homogenous, and the >>> Venices >>>> had sufficient harmonicity, not to absolutely cry out for octaves, >>> as >>>> the Lyons did (nothing wrong with the lyons per se) >>>> % >>>> Like yourself, I was striving to achieve the best sound with a >>>> particular lute type and stringing; however, as Martin Shepherd >>> has >>>> explained, the music might actually indicate quite a different >>> string >>>> pattern: >>>> "One of my examples from Cutting (not in the message you quote, I >>>> think) is the Pavan "Sans per" and its galliard, which makes >>> extensive >>>> use of a 7th at D but only makes sense with an octave on the 4th >>>> course. This suggests he had good enough strings to be able to do >>>> complicated stuff with the 7th course but still used an octave on >>> the >>>> 4th (out of tradition? habit? because he simply liked it that >>>> way?)."Martin >>>> % >>>> This rather goes against looking for one "perfect" stringing for a >>> lute >>>> (as I admit I was doing), I suppose we should restring for each >>> piece, >>>> or ideally have several lutes tuned for the pieces we intend to >>> play. >>>> % >>>> Martin goes on to explain, that even Dowland's music seems to be >>>> calling for octaves on 4 and 5c, in spite of his "theoretical" >>> support >>>> of unisson: >>>> % >>>> "The music often suggests octaves when a cadence is resolved at >>> the >>>> "wrong" octave, or a scale passage jumps octave for no apparent >>> reason, >>>> or a note which is needed for correct voice leading or point of >>>> imitation is apparently missing but supplied by the upper octave >>> of a >>>> lower course."(...) >>>> % >>>> (...) >>>> Dowland, Queen Elizabeth's Galliard, VLL Galliard 2(Poulton no.41) >>> bar 6: >>>> -f--c-d---!-a-----c---a-!--- >>>> -c--a-a---!-a-----c-----!-e- >>>> ----------!-------f-e---!-a- >>>> -e--a-c-a-!-------------!--- >>>> ----c-----!-e-c---------!-c- >>>> -c----a---!-d---c-------!--- >>>> >>>> (the descending scale c4, a4, e5, c5 needs to be an octave higher to >>>> connect with the f3 in the 4/3 suspension at the cadence. Octaves on >>>> courses 4 and 5 solve the problem. Octave on course 5 also allows >>> the >>>> "e" to resolve at the correct octavein the final chord). Martin" >>>> % >>>> [3]http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19978.html >>>> Regards >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >>> __________________________________________________________________ >>>> De : Bruno Fournier<[4]br...@estavel.org> >>>> A : Anthony Hind<[5]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >>>> Cc : Miles Dempster<[6]miles.demps...@gmail.com>; >>> "[7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" >>>> <[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> Envoye le : Vendredi 25 Novembre 2011 15h12 >>>> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing >>>> I personally like the sound of octaves starting on the 5th >>> course and >>>> going down.A I have always found the 4th in octaves to be >>> difficult >>>> at >>>> tuning.A On my soprano lute 6 course however, I use unisons. >>>> A >>>> Bruno >>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Anthony Hind >>>> <[1][1][9]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> A You are right of course, A and I do have unissons on the >>> fourth >>>> and >>>> A fifth, but octaves beginning on the 6th. >>>> A I wasn't thinking straight, but vaguely remembering that >>> someone >>>> jumped >>>> A to the conclusion that because I >>>> A had unissons on the fifth I also had them on the sixth, >>> which of >>>> course >>>> A is not at all the same thing. Appologies, Miles and >>> Matthias, >>>> for >>>> A my half-awake state, in spite of the late hour. >>>> A Regards >>>> A Anthony >>>> A A >>>> >>> __________________________________________________________________ >>>> A De : Miles Dempster<[2][2][10]miles.demps...@gmail.com> >>>> A A : Lute List<[3][3][11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> A Envoye le : Vendredi 25 Novembre 2011 14h43 >>>> A Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing >>>> A My understanding is that, generally speaking, the purpose >>> of the >>>> octave >>>> A is to brighten up a course which would otherwise sound too >>>> muddy. >>>> A Since 'muddiness' increases with string thickness, if the >>> 5th >>>> course >>>> A doesn't need an octave, then why would the 4th course would >>> need >>>> one? >>>> A Miles >>>> A On 2011-11-25, at 8:04 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: >>>> A> A Matthias, I am not quite sure why we may infer the >>>> following: >>>> A> A "I understand the author as saying that a) he himself >>> has an >>>> octave >>>> A> A string >>>> A> A with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and >>> followers >>>> A (Italians >>>> A> A in >>>> A> A general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may >>> infer >>>> that >>>> A> A Dentice >>>> A> A also had unisons for his 4th course." Mathias >>>> A> A I have unissons on the 5th course of my 7c lute, but >>> octaves >>>> on >>>> my >>>> A> A fourth, but perhaps I have missed something. >>>> A> A Regards >>>> A> A Anthony >>>> A> A >>>> A >>>> __________________________________________________________________ >>>> A> >>>> A> A De : Mathias Roesel >>> <[1][4][4][12]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> >>>> A> A A : 'Lute Net'<[2][5][5][13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> A> A Envoye le : Jeudi 24 Novembre 2011 17h35 >>>> A> A Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing >>>> A>> Neverthelesse the Tune self of the same .F. Is found in >>> the >>>> same >>>> A>> compainie, and eight of the greate fift stryng: >>>> A>> which reason could not be in Lutes, tuned after the >>> manner of >>>> A Fabrice >>>> A> A Dentice >>>> A>> the Italian, and other his followers. Where those >>> strynges >>>> that >>>> A> A satnde >>>> A> A twoo and >>>> A>> twoo together, bee sette in one Tune and not by eightes, >>>> which >>>> thei >>>> A> A do for >>>> A> A a >>>> A>> perfection of harmonie, in avoiding many unissons, which >>>> those >>>> eight >>>> A> A would >>>> A>> cause." >>>> A>> 2. I understand Le Roy is saying that Dentice used a >>> unison >>>> 5th >>>> A> A course, >>>> A> A not just a >>>> A>> unison 4th. Is this right? >>>> A> A I understand the author as saying that a) he himself >>> has an >>>> octave >>>> A> A string >>>> A> A with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and >>> followers >>>> A (Italians >>>> A> A in >>>> A> A general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may >>> infer >>>> that >>>> A> A Dentice >>>> A> A also had unisons for his 4th course. >>>> A> A Mathias >>>> A> A To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> A> >>>> A >>>> >>> [1][3][6][6][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> A> >>>> A> A -- >>>> A> >>>> A> References >>>> A> >>>> A> A 1. >>>> >>> [4][7][7][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> A> >>>> A -- >>>> A -- >>>> References >>>> A 1. mailto:[8][8][16]mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>>> A 2. mailto:[9][9][17]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> A 3. >>>> >>> [10][10][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> A 4. >>>> >>> [11][11][19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> -- >>>> A >>>> Bruno Cognyl-Fournier >>>> A >>>> [12]www.estavel.org >>>> A >>>> -- >>>> References >>>> 1. mailto:[12][20]agno3ph...@yahoo.com >>>> 2. mailto:[13][21]miles.demps...@gmail.com >>>> 3. mailto:[14][22]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 4. mailto:[15][23]mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>>> 5. mailto:[16][24]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 6. >>> [17][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 7. >>> [18][26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 8. mailto:[19][27]mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>>> 9. mailto:[20][28]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 10. >>> [21][29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 11. >>> [22][30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 12. [23][31]http://www.estavel.org/ >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>> 1. mailto:[32]agno3ph...@yahoo.com >>>> 2. mailto:[33]miles.demps...@gmail.com >>>> 3. mailto:[34]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 4. mailto:[35]mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>>> 5. mailto:[36]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 6. [37]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 7. [38]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 8. mailto:[39]mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>>> 9. mailto:[40]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 10. [41]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 11. [42]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 12. mailto:[43]agno3ph...@yahoo.com >>>> 13. mailto:[44]miles.demps...@gmail.com >>>> 14. mailto:[45]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 15. mailto:[46]mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>>> 16. mailto:[47]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 17. [48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 18. [49]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 19. mailto:[50]mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>>> 20. mailto:[51]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 21. [52]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 22. [53]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 23. [54]http://www.estavel.org/ >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> References >>> >>> 1. http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19978.html >>> 2. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com >>> 3. http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19978.html >>> 4. mailto:br...@estavel.org >>> 5. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com >>> 6. mailto:miles.demps...@gmail.com >>> 7. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 9. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com >>> 10. mailto:miles.demps...@gmail.com >>> 11. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 12. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>> 13. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 16. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>> 17. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 20. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com >>> 21. mailto:miles.demps...@gmail.com >>> 22. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 23. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>> 24. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 26. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 27. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>> 28. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 31. http://www.estavel.org/ >>> 32. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com >>> 33. mailto:miles.demps...@gmail.com >>> 34. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 35. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>> 36. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 37. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 38. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 39. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>> 40. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 41. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 42. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 43. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com >>> 44. mailto:miles.demps...@gmail.com >>> 45. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 46. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>> 47. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 48. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 49. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 50. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de >>> 51. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 52. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 53. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 54. http://www.estavel.org/ >>> >> >>
