Dear Martyn It was not the translation, it was the fact that I left out a word: 'Thanks to their high breaking index THESE trebles are less heavily stressed'. thanks for spotting that, I was copying from Lute News, and slips are easy.
About the idea of making a string out of a single gut, I seem to remember that Mimmo tried that and the string was very fragile (I think he mentioned it at the string conference). However, Mimmo did send me a note to say that the number of strips used and how they are twisted together could be of greater importance (more important than any difference between Sheep/Beef which he doubts, or chemical treatment). In the article, Mimmo claims the Munich strings (the best according to Mace) were probably not made of a single whole gut, as Capriola says that Munich strings are not fatter at one end (as they would have been if made from one gut). Regards Anthony ----- Mail original ----- De : Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> À : William Samson <willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>; Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> Cc : "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Envoyé le : Vendredi 20 janvier 2012 17h05 Objet : [LUTE] Gut trebles - was String hairs Dear Anthony, Another way of achieving gut less likely to fray is by much greater care in the selection of the unprocessed gut. In particular for trebles it has been suggested (first I believe by Eph Segerman) that a single whole gut of near uniform thickness could be used and cut with such precision that after careful twisting no or minimal 'rectification' is necessary - thus avoiding breaking of the fibres and leading to early failure. Of course this would increase the cost of such strings but then historical records suggest that strings were always very expensive. On another matter: I don't understand the comment you report Mimmo as making - 'Thanks to their high breaking index trebles are less heavily stressed'. Stress is defined purely as tension/cross-sectional area and thus trebles will, by definition, be more highly stressed than any other string. Perhaps his meaning is lost in translation ....... regards Martyn --- On Fri, 20/1/12, Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> Subject: [LUTE] Re: String hairs To: "William Samson" <willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Friday, 20 January, 2012, 14:18 Dear William and All, I just thought it might be worth resuming for William, the situation in relation to strong gut trebles, as appeared in discussions, here, and elsewhere, over the last few years, even though this goes a little beyond the practical concerns of which William has spoken, by raising the question (William did not ask) as to whether it is possible to achieve a string that frays less, and what the effect might be on the resulting sound. % I notice that there may be (at least) two ways of achieving this. The first would be a chemical treatment of the gut, as appears to have been done by Mimmo Peruffo, according to his text at lute News 79 Oct 2006 (P14-15); the second would be a careful use of Beef Serosa (according to Dan Larson, at Gamut). In both cases, the result would be a stronger string, than using non treated sheep gut : 1) Mimmo "These (chemically treated) strings feel rather stiff to the fingertip. Thanks to their rough structure they are less liable to squashing, and less liable to jam on the nut, or be cut. Thanks to their high breaking index trebles are less heavily stressed, which becomes evident, especially through the fact that they stretch less while tuning (...). In practical terms, less peg turning is needed to reach the required pitch. Less stretching under stress means a higher resistance to fraying, which is the main problem of modern strings and is related to the action of the player's fingers, and perspiration, and string tension." Lute News 79 (in this expose, Mimmo does not say whether he was using sheep or beef gut, although his historic hypothesis must surely be that it would have been applied to sheep gut; although it should evidently be possible to apply it to beef, resulting in an even stronger string?) % 2) Dan: " Because beef gut strings are stronger than sheep gut strings they are a good choice for instruments with a long string length, or higher tension situations. In addition to the extra strength, the fiber structure of beef serosa has less of the fine hairs that sometimes develop on sheep gut strings." [1]http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/beef-gut/ % It would seem that both methods lead to a stiffer treble (which therefore frays less) and which presumably in each case also result in a brighter clearer sound: Dan: "The customer feedback we have received indicate that beef gut stabilizes more quickly and holds pitch a little better than sheep gut. The tone has been described as being clearer and brighter than sheep but of equal gauge." [2]http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/news/new-beef-gut-strings.html Ed says of Dan's beef trebles, "Yes. I love the trebles. They last much longer, and have a clear, lean, wonderful sound." [3]http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg26619.html This is more or less my experience of Mimmo's chemically strengthened string (although possibly not so lean?), which I think he is also trying to achieve with his new NG trebles, which are quite bright, but as Dan W. says comparing this string with gut, "slight loss of slightly richer gut sound more than compensated by a more open, distinct & extroverted quality to the overtones (...)" [4]http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg38490.html % Gamut does not of course make the only "strong" beef gut trebles. There are also testimonies about strong beef trebles by Toro (Italy) sold by Universale, as those also of Dan W. [5]http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg26619.html Universale by Toro: They are not dedicated to lute- they simply make BY FAR the strongest, most durable treble strings I have ever used - in my case, a pair of .42 mm (perfectly true and in tune with each other) that I put on my vihuela (...) Got them in June, and only this past week is one of them beginning to shred." Dan Winheld However, Dan goes on to say, "and for sound, those durable trebles are not quite as sweet as the more delicate strings. No free lunch!" I imagine that could be true of most strong trebles, depending on the lute and your playing style, you might like its "clear, lean, wonderful sound" (as Ed), or feel it is a little less sweet (as Dan does), or less full, as Jonathan Dunford does, albeit comparing beef ropes and sheep designed by Corquoz and made by Toro: [6]http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/ViolaDaGamba/message/970 "I've been using them ever since they existed (I had the first protytpes) and I find them stable and much "fuller" sounding than the cow gut (for instance Pirastro/Savarez or Kurschner)."JD (although this could both be rope structure as well as the origin sheep/beef)l % Indeed, David v.O. says he prefers the sound of Kathedrale (sheep gut) to Universale (beef by Toro), presumably for the sweeter sound, even though he prefers the Toro to synthetics: [7]http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg26575.html "I prefer the sound of Kathedrale, also _very_ long lasting, but some do disagree about here. Universale is _much_ better than nylon, it sounds like gut, feels like gut, tatstes like ... it is gut!" DvO % This is just the result of a rapid search as a reminder of what has been said over the last few years; and it may be something of a caricature. I note that no one has suggested that Keurschner top strings are particularly long lasting, although I believe these are also beef (and I know at least one gut enthusiast who likes them well for their sound). It may not be quite as simple as beef = long duration but slightly lean sound, sheep=shorter duration but warmer sound; of course the string maker's art goes beyond that. Also, do Toro and Gamut strings sound alike (I haven't tried either)? Are all Toro's treble strings made for each specialist seller (Baroco, La Folia, Universale, Toro) identical, or different? Jonathan Dunford seems to say that Corquoz does design the one for Baroco. Of course this brief message is not an attempt at being complete. Regards Anthony ________________________________ De : William Samson <[8]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> A : David Smith <[9]d...@dolcesfogato.com> Cc : "[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Envoye le : Jeudi 19 janvier 2012 9h28 Objet : [LUTE] Re: String hairs Unless you want to be continually replacing your first string, you should either drop to a lower pitch standard (even a semitone will increase the lifespan quite significantly) or if that isn't an option (horror of horrors) use a synthetic (e.g. nylgut) string for your first. There's always the forlorn hope that somebody will start producing stronger gut, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Maybe one of us knows more than me about the process of giving gut an even diameter, but I have heard there are two options, one involving the abrasion of the 'rough' string, and the other using strings that have been very carefully hand-made with selected strips and don't need grinding of the string's surface to make it even. The latter type would be stronger, but I wouldn't know where to buy them. Bill From: David Smith <[12]d...@dolcesfogato.com> To: Lute List <[13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, 19 January 2012, 6:25 Subject: [LUTE] String hairs I have a new lute that has gut strings on it. I have had it for about 3 days. The 1^st string has unraveled a single "hair" about the 7^th fret. In the past I have just cut these as short as possible but frequently the string breaks within a couple of weeks. Is there any better way to treat these "hairs"? I play with no nails and have been very careful so am somewhat surprised at this happening so quickly. Is this common with gut strings? Thanks for any words of wisdom. Regards David -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/beef-gut/ 2. http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/news/new-beef-gut-strings.html 3. http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg26619.html 4. http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg38490.html 5. http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg26619.html 6. http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/ViolaDaGamba/message/970 7. http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg26575.html 8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsam...@yahoo.co.uk 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=d...@dolcesfogato.com 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=d...@dolcesfogato.com 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
