I don't know how relevant the concept of urtext is in this case. Urtext or not, there is still no evidence to tie Bach's alleged lute suites to Bach in his hand and plenty of evidence that these are arrangements or speculation at best. There's nothing wrong with playing that music on the lute (especially because there is evidence that some folks from around that time did like to play some of these pieces on lute: e.g., Weyrauch and Falckenhagen), but I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging what info there is of its provenance either. You're right; it's all speculation.
I think you have the concept of Bach's rental stable in reverse. Titmuss and others aren't arguing for Bach as renter/lessee but as lessor/owner, leasing his own stable out to paying customers. To quote the originally linked article, "There is evidence that he ran an instrument rental business." If so, that sounds like a man who would own a fair number of popular instruments himself and not necessarily be proficient with every one that he did own. Best, Eugene ________________________________________ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of David Tayler [vidan...@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:14 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted For me the point is that Carolyn Abbate fimly trounced the notion of an urtext thirty years ago :) I just don't see any point in revisiting it. It turns out that composition works like quantum mechanics, the closer you look, the fuzzier it gets. So all this linear provenance, composers intent, etc, that went out the window years ago. I mean, no one is saying don't speculate, but it is just speculation. As far as Bach renting instruments, that proves one of two things. First, that he probaly did not rent them, because they would not have been in his household inventory at the time of his death, and, second, in the extremely unlikely event that he rented them, he must have wanted them. Here's my 2 euro cents. The gamba sonatas, some of the greatest music ever written for gamba, composed on a rent-a-viol? Good thing they didn't get repo'd! And there was no ocarina on his shelf. Just instruments that happened to be used in the finest sacred pieces composed in the baroque period--the John and Matthew passions. Coincidence? Equally likely, IMHO, finding a moon rock in an astronauts luggage. And I mean no disrespect, it just seems awfully tidy. And I missing something, and maybe someone here can help me, but the page marked "unplayable" in the article, doesn't this work fine on the archlute? Of all the arguments, playability certainly is intriguing. dt __________________________________________________________________ From: "Braig, Eugene" <brai...@osu.edu> To: lute <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 11:31:40 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted I think the point, David, is that the music we have inherited as "Bach's works for lute" doesn't have any linear provenance to actually connect them to an intention by Bach for them to be performed on lute. That said, transcriptions of any Bach music are as legitimately "lute" as the alleged lute works. Sure, he may have dabbled on a lute in his own collection, but who knows with what music? While I own a Viennese ocarina, jaw-harp, 6-hole American cedar flute, chromatic harmonica, etc. there's little likelihood of me composing music for any of them within my lifetime. (Granted, I am not anything like a properly trained composer.) As Titmuss points out, there is some speculation Bach also rented instruments. If so, I wouldn't necessarily expect an intimate compositional familiarity with the pieces in his rental stable. Eugene -----Original Message----- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David Tayler Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:17 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Let's see, Bach owned a lute, but didn't play it. Probably used it for a planter. In all seriousness, this argument hinges on the idea of an urtext, which is simply not tenable for a composer who arranged and rearranged his own works as well as the works of other composers. We don't know how Bach--and others--played this music, but the lautenwerk, the organ, clavichord, lute, archlute, gallichon, all possibilities. Certainly a lute player might have come up with a scordatura that would be quite fabulous, and they of course sound great on the lautenwerk. Classic example? Toccata and fugue is really not by Bach and also for the violin. OK, or it really is by Bach and sounds great on the organ. The consistent model is that Bach composed for instruments in his house--the viol, the lute, the harpsichord, the lautenwerk, the violin, viola, and so on, as well as many other instruments. And while I think it is more likely, even very likely, that these pieces are for lautenwerk, it is quite possible that someone someday will play them on some kind of lute perfectly. Without 2000 edits :) Add virtuoso, rinse, take the repeats. __________________________________________________________________ From: William Samson <[3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> To: Luca Manassero <[4]l...@manassero.net>; "[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 7:01:08 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted I won't believe it until it appears on Mythbusters :) Bill From: Luca Manassero <[1][7]l...@manassero.net> To: [2][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 14:37 Subject: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted An interesting post: [1][1][3][9]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suit es- thi s-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ Luca References 1. [2][4][10]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites -thi s-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3][5][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6][12]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-th is-m 2. [7][13]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-th is-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ 3. [8][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[15]l...@manassero.net 2. mailto:[16]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [17]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi 4. [18]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this- m 5. [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. [20]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this- m 7. [21]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this- myth-is-busted-part-i/ 8. [22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk 4. mailto:l...@manassero.net 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:l...@manassero.net 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites 10. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m 13. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 15. mailto:l...@manassero.net 16. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 17. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi 18. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m 19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 20. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m 21. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-myth-is-busted-part-i/ 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html