Greetings Prof. Mayes, Yeah, I should not have used the "Bach's own hand" line; that's not really what I was getting at. Still, Ana Magdalina is a bit of a different case than Falckenhagen, e.g., just because she was obviously rather close to ol' Johann and known as one of her husband's regular copyists. I don't think anybody is arguing that Bach's "lute" works aren't Bach's, only that there is very little to suggest that he himself ever expected that music to be performed by actual lutenists with actual lutes in lap. In many cases-e.g., BWV 1000-there are examples with good Bachy provenance obviously intended for other instruments; this particular piece is also a good example of one to come to us as "lute" via an arrangement by a lutenist acquaintance of Bach's.
Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with playing any/all of the alleged lute works on lutes or even in referring to them as "Bach's lute music." That is how we've all come to know this stuff. ...And we all know Bach himself was an inveterate recycler of his own (and even others': e.g., the solo keyboard concerti) music. There's also nothing wrong with an objective recognition of what is known of the source material for Bach's lute works, whatever conclusion anybody would like to draw from it. Best, Eugene -----Original Message----- From: Mayes, Joseph [mailto:ma...@rowan.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 7:49 AM To: Braig, Eugene; lute Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Hi Eugene The "Bach's own hand" argument is specious - we don't have the 'cello suites in Bach's hand either and even though they were in Ana Magdalina's hand and at least one for another instrument, we still call them "Bach's 'Cello Suites." Joseph Mayes On 4/25/12 10:23 PM, "Braig, Eugene" <brai...@osu.edu> wrote: > I don't know how relevant the concept of urtext is in this case. > Urtext or not, there is still no evidence to tie Bach's alleged lute > suites to Bach in his hand and plenty of evidence that these are > arrangements or speculation at best. There's nothing wrong with > playing that music on the lute (especially because there is evidence > that some folks from around that time did like to play some of these > pieces on lute: e.g., Weyrauch and Falckenhagen), but I don't think > there's anything wrong with acknowledging what info there is of its > provenance either. You're right; it's all speculation. > > I think you have the concept of Bach's rental stable in reverse. > Titmuss and others aren't arguing for Bach as renter/lessee but as > lessor/owner, leasing his own stable out to paying customers. To > quote the originally linked article, "There is evidence that he ran an > instrument rental business." If so, that sounds like a man who would > own a fair number of popular instruments himself and not necessarily be > proficient with every one that he did own. > > Best, > Eugene > > ________________________________________ > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf > of David Tayler [vidan...@sbcglobal.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:14 PM > To: lute > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach¹s Lute > Suites: This Myth is Busted > > For me the point is that Carolyn Abbate fimly trounced the notion of an > urtext thirty years ago :) > I just don't see any point in revisiting it. It turns out that > composition works like quantum mechanics, the closer you look, the > fuzzier it gets. > So all this linear provenance, composers intent, etc, that went out the > window years ago. I mean, no one is saying don't speculate, but it is > just speculation. > As far as Bach renting instruments, that proves one of two things. > First, that he probaly did not rent them, because they would not have > been in his household inventory at the time of his death, and, second, > in the extremely unlikely event that he rented them, he must have > wanted them. Here's my 2 euro cents. The gamba sonatas, some of the > greatest music ever written for gamba, composed on a rent-a-viol? Good > thing they didn't get repo'd! > And there was no ocarina on his shelf. Just instruments that happened > to be used in the finest sacred pieces composed in the baroque > period--the John and Matthew passions. > Coincidence? Equally likely, IMHO, finding a moon rock in an astronauts > luggage. And I mean no disrespect, it just seems awfully tidy. > And I missing something, and maybe someone here can help me, but the > page marked "unplayable" in the article, doesn't this work fine on the > archlute? > Of all the arguments, playability certainly is intriguing. > dt > > __________________________________________________________________ > > From: "Braig, Eugene" <brai...@osu.edu> > To: lute <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 11:31:40 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth > is Busted > I think the point, David, is that the music we have inherited as > "Bach's works for lute" doesn't have any linear provenance to actually > connect them to an intention by Bach for them to be performed on lute. > That said, transcriptions of any Bach music are as legitimately "lute" > as the alleged lute works. > Sure, he may have dabbled on a lute in his own collection, but who > knows with what music? While I own a Viennese ocarina, jaw-harp, > 6-hole American cedar flute, chromatic harmonica, etc. there's little > likelihood of me composing music for any of them within my lifetime. > (Granted, I am not anything like a properly trained composer.) > As Titmuss points out, there is some speculation Bach also rented > instruments. If so, I wouldn't necessarily expect an intimate > compositional familiarity with the pieces in his rental stable. > Eugene > -----Original Message----- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David Tayler > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:17 PM > To: lute > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is > Busted > Let's see, Bach owned a lute, but didn't play it. Probably used it > for > a planter. > In all seriousness, this argument hinges on the idea of an urtext, > which is simply not tenable for a composer who arranged and > rearranged > his own works as well as the works of other composers. We don't know > how Bach--and others--played this music, but the lautenwerk, the > organ, > clavichord, lute, archlute, gallichon, all possibilities. > Certainly a lute player might have come up with a scordatura that > would > be quite fabulous, and they of course sound great on the lautenwerk. > Classic example? Toccata and fugue is really not by Bach and also for > the violin. OK, or it really is by Bach and sounds great on the > organ. > The consistent model is that Bach composed for instruments in his > house--the viol, the lute, the harpsichord, the lautenwerk, the > violin, > viola, and so on, as well as many other instruments. > And while I think it is more likely, even very likely, that these > pieces are for lautenwerk, it is quite possible that someone someday > will play them on some kind of lute perfectly. Without 2000 edits :) > Add virtuoso, rinse, take the repeats. > __________________________________________________________________ > From: William Samson <[3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> > To: Luca Manassero <[4]l...@manassero.net>; > "[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" > <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 7:01:08 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted > I won't believe it until it appears on Mythbusters :) > Bill > From: Luca Manassero <[1][7]l...@manassero.net> > To: [2][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 14:37 > Subject: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted > An interesting post: > > [1][1][3][9]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suit > es- > thi > s-m > yth-is-busted-part-i/ > Luca > References > 1. > > [2][4][10]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites > -thi > s-m > yth-is-busted-part-i/ > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3][5][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. > > [6][12]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-th > is-m > 2. > > [7][13]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-th > is-m > yth-is-busted-part-i/ > 3. [8][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. mailto:[15]l...@manassero.net > 2. mailto:[16]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. > [17]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi > 4. > [18]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this- > m > 5. [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > 6. > [20]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this- > m > 7. > [21]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this- > myth-is-busted-part-i/ > 8. [22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk > 4. mailto:l...@manassero.net > 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 7. mailto:l...@manassero.net > 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 9. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites > 10. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi > 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > 12. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m > 13. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m > 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > 15. mailto:l...@manassero.net > 16. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 17. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi > 18. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m > 19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > 20. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m > 21. > http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-myt > h-is-bus > ted-part-i/ > 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
