a geetar then.
Phrases like "there is some likelihood that item X might very well could
have been item Y"
may work in some musicological situations, but not in the case of our "Lute
Suites".
RT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jarosław Lipski" <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>
To: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:50 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
but in this case a spade is not a spade :)
JL
Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:32:
Yes,
but -
sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo,
and just call a spade a spade.
RT
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarosław Lipski"
<jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>
To: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Eugene,
Well, saying that "the evidence would be that Bach did not write any
music specifically intended for solo lute" sounds to me (do correct me
if I'm wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a final
argument, doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and
expressing them publicly, but making new theories is another matter. I
greatly recommend David Ledbetters book "Unaccompanied Bach" (as
mentioned) which deals with all available data concerning this subject
in detail. There are many question marks and unfortunately no simple
answers so far, I am afraid.
However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suites if
we understand them the same way that some guitarists used to believe in
past, but then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge
someones knowledge. It's much better to present bare facts letting
people decide what they can make of it, IMHO.
My 2 cents
Best regards
Jaroslaw
Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz.
22:01:
I wholeheartedly agree, jl. Fortunately, I don't believe the little
article discussed here did make any such definitive statements. I
think it did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative
objectivity.
Eugene
________________________________________
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf
of Jarosław Lipski [jaroslawlip...@wp.pl]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone
makes very definite statements like- the evidence would be that Bach
did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute
- or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down
I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need
more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true.
Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on
lute pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments from available
scholarly literature than made ad hoc theories, unless the reason for
this was to stir a discussion.
jl
WiadomoϾ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o
godz. 20:02:
... It's obviously a bit of
popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff
tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly
literature ever will. > Eugene
I agree.
The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is
getting
from the Lute list. Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 -
30
years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest
of the
music world does not. An article like this on a "guitar site" (nose
upturned?)
will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good
thing,
bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines.
Something
I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for
example,
keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece
was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments. The same
is
true for violin, etc.
"Any press is good press - even bad press." I personally think that
the more
people write about these things, the better. And if you have
pertinent info that
this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know about
it?
Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with the
world.
And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider audience
is going
to be good for lutes and lutenists.
I'll look forward to future responses.
Tom
However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary
source material (the manuscripts themselves). It's obviously a bit
of
popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff
tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly
literature ever will.
Eugene
-----Original Message-----
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM Cc:
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach´s Lute
Suites: This Myth is Busted
Am 25.04.2012, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net>:
The article was aimed at the guitar crowd,
And that's probably why the article is a bit superficial. ;-) A real
contribution would need to be in scholarly style. No references here,
no mentioning of newer literature (e.g. by Negwer, Dierksen, Hofmann,
Ledbetter), lots of statements without evidence.
Regards
Stephan
still clinging to illusions
of lute. It's tough letting go.
But he put it all together very nicely, I thought.
On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote:
While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly new
here. For example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all the
sources of Bach's original "lute" music in the liner notes he
drafted for his recording of this music around 30 years ago. He
also stated their evident non-lute provenance. I have heard Paul
O'Dette unequivocally state on more than one occasion something
like "Sorry, Bach did not write for the lute." Etc. I suspect
that anybody who is still clinging to the notion that Bach
knowingly composed lute music after having had some exposure to
some reference of the source material either really, really wants
to believe so to somehow legitimize the lute or is a fan of modern
classical guitar who wants to somehow legitimize the perceived
ancestor of his/her own instrument.
Best,
Eugene
-----Original Message-----
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
On Behalf Of t...@heartistrymusic.com Sent: Wednesday, April 25,
2012 11:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Luca Manassero Subject:
[LUTE] [LUTE] Bach´s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
A very interesting article. I can't wait to see the responses
from
the rest of the list! I am reminded that Walther Gerwig did an
arrangement of Bach's Cello Suite No.1 in G major, BWV1007. Very
nice and beautifully played - in Renaissance tuning!
Tom
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