RT From: "Braig, Eugene" <brai...@osu.edu>
Avoiding definitive categorical strikes me as usually a good plan. Eugene-----Original Message-----From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Mayes, Joseph I have an issue whenever I hear a blanket statement like "He never wrote for it," and "JSB never played the trumpet." It strikes me as similar to "there is no God" or "there is a God."We know JSB liked the sound of the lute - he invented a keyboard instrument to imitate that sound. We can guess that he didn't like the sound of the guitar or the piano because, although both instruments were around during his lifetime, he wrote nothing for either. Further studies may reveal a Back letter that states his feelings about/writing for lute but absent that, we're just guessing. Categorical statements like Romans' or Paul O'Dette's are not all that helpful.JM On 4/30/12 9:19 AM, "Roman Turovsky" <r.turov...@verizon.net> wrote:JSB never played trumpet either, but he wrote for it competently. There is sufficient grounds to assume he would have approached lute with equal consideration he afforded any other instrument he wrote for, given his diligence and meticulousness. The lute is the only instrument he showed no understanding of - because he never wrote for it. RT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarosław Lipski" <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> To: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 5:13 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is BustedRoman, Yes , no one questions that. Lute Suites are not well written for lute, for sure. Weather they are playable or not can be discussed. However we are not talking about this. The question is if Bach intended them to be performed on a lute. I can tell you something from my own experience. Many years ago when I studied in London therewas a Polish composer who wanted to write a guitar piece which was commissioned for a special occasion.Because I was asked to perform it he consulted me several times on playability of some passages. In spite he was obviously aware of therange of classical guitar, the way he structured his music was very unintuitive.If he hadn't had a guitarist to consult during a compositional process probably he would have written something unplayable for someone who would try to take the score literally. Now, could you imagine that Bach being probably one of the most prolific composer inhistory of music, but being mostly as we say nowadays a keyboard player !would have time to study possibilities of an instrument that he did not play himself? Possibly he knew the range of this instrument and how it sounds, but the idea that he would have cared about every note to be played comfortably on a lute seems to me not tenable. In fact it is quite possible that being fond of lute's sound (as we know from some writings and his love for lute-harpsichord and clavichord) and being asked by Mr Schouster he made an arrangement of his work with a real intention of editing it for lute players. Anyway, it's just a speculation, but it shows that one can interpret the same data in many different ways. Until more evidence is found it is better to refrain from making up new theories, I suppose. All best JL isticWiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 30 kwi 2012, o godz. 04:42:Jarek, I thinks the available evidence pretty much points where Clive thinks it does, and I am inclined to agree with him, notwithstanding Vasily Antipov, an excellent Russian player who actually can perform "Lute Suites" as written (he knows no technical difficulties). The "Lute Suites" are simply not performable by an average professional player (unlike the rest of JSB's works), and that is the ultimate giveaway (besides being out of lutenistic character). RT From: "Jarosław Lipski" <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> Roman, I do not share your dislike for musicology. It pays really big service to all of us I suppose. It has its rules and trespassing them creates the effect you are talking about. I am just saying that the available evidence on so called Lute Suites does not entitle us to make very definite statements that Bach never ever wrote anything with a lute in mind apart from 2 small movements in his Passions. It would be not too difficult to create a contradictory theory, but this kind of speculation seems to be rather a waste of time. JL Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 23:01:a geetar then. Phrases like "there is some likelihood that item X might very well could have been item Y" may work in some musicological situations, but not in the case of our "Lute Suites". RT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarosław Lipski" <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> To: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:50 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Bustedbut in this case a spade is not a spade :) JL Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:32:Yes, but - sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo, and just call a spade a spade. RT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarosław Lipski" <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> To: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is BustedEugene,Well, saying that "the evidence would be that Bach did not write anymusic specifically intended for solo lute" sounds to me (do correct me if I'm wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a final argument, doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts andexpressing them publicly, but making new theories is another matter.I greatly recommend David Ledbetters book "Unaccompanied Bach" (as mentioned) which deals with all available data concerning thissubject in detail. There are many question marks and unfortunately nosimple answers so far, I am afraid.However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suitesif we understand them the same way that some guitarists used tobelieve in past, but then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge someones knowledge. It's much better to present bare factsletting people decide what they can make of it, IMHO. My 2 cents Best regards Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:01:I wholeheartedly agree, jl. Fortunately, I don't believe the littlearticle discussed here did make any such definitive statements. I think it did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative objectivity. Eugene ________________________________________ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Jarosław Lipski [jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes very definite statements like- the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute - or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still weneed more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B istrue. Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on lute pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments from available scholarly literature than made ad hoc theories, unless the reason for this was to stir a discussion. jlWiadomoœæ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012,o godz. 20:02:... It's obviously a bit of popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly literature ever will. > EugeneI agree. The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting from the Lute list. Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30 years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of the music world does not. An article like this on a "guitar site" (nose upturned?) will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good thing, bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines. Something I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example, keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments. The same is true for violin, etc. "Any press is good press - even bad press." I personally think that the more people write about these things, the better. And if you have pertinent info that this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know about it? Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with the world. And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider audience is going to be good for lutes and lutenists. I'll look forward to future responses. TomHowever, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary source material (the manuscripts themselves). It's obviously a bit of popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly literature ever will. Eugene -----Original Message-----From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]On Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach´s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Am 25.04.2012, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net>:The article was aimed at the guitar crowd,And that's probably why the article is a bit superficial. ;-) A real contribution would need to be in scholarly style. No references here, no mentioning of newer literature (e.g. by Negwer, Dierksen, Hofmann, Ledbetter), lots of statements without evidence. Regards Stephan still clinging to illusionsof lute. It's tough letting go. But he put it all together very nicely, I thought. On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote:While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly new here. For example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all the sources of Bach's original "lute" music in the liner notes hedrafted for his recording of this music around 30 years ago. Healso stated their evident non-lute provenance. I have heard PaulO'Dette unequivocally state on more than one occasion something like "Sorry, Bach did not write for the lute." Etc. I suspectthat anybody who is still clinging to the notion that Bachknowingly composed lute music after having had some exposure tosome reference of the source material either really, really wants to believe so to somehow legitimize the lute or is a fan of modern classical guitar who wants to somehow legitimize the perceived ancestor of his/her own instrument. Best, Eugene -----Original Message----- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]On Behalf Of t...@heartistrymusic.com Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Luca Manassero Subject:[LUTE] [LUTE] Bach´s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted A very interesting article. I can't wait to see the responses fromthe rest of the list! I am reminded that Walther Gerwig did anarrangement of Bach's Cello Suite No.1 in G major, BWV1007. Very nice and beautifully played - in Renaissance tuning! Tom-- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html-- Erstellt mit Operas revolutionärem E-Mail-Modul: http://www.opera.com/mail/Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362--
