There is a picture in the National Gallery of Scotland of a woman playing a theorbo, with the comment that she couldn't play, she borrowed it for the painting, and then she didn't return it. I didn't make a note of the details, but it was in a book catalog of the museum.
Wayne Begin forwarded message: > From: Jarosław Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten > Date: July 20, 2012 1:04:43 PM EDT > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Thank you Martyn, > > Sorry, I've pushed the button too early by mistake. > No, I am sorry, unfortunately it is not known to me, but I can't see the > reason for which she would take for a portrait an instrument that she didn't > play instead of an instrument that she did. > > Jaroslaw > > Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 18:46: > >> Thank you Jaroslaw, >> >> You write 'There is a strong evidence that Eleonore very often accompanied >> Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis.' - is there any record >> of what instrument(s) Eleonore actually played at these little concerts? >> >> Martyn >> >> >> >> --- On Fri, 20/7/12, Jaros“aw Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote: >> >> From: Jaros“aw Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> >> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten >> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >> Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 17:35 >> >> Just another thought. >> Eleonore married Detrich von Keyserling who was a very close friend of >> Frederick II. In 1744 she gave birth to her daughter Adelaide. Frederick >> decided to be Adelaide's godfather and during the baptism ceremony he was >> keeping the child in his arms. Soon Keyserlings were moved to Schloss >> Schonhausen according to Frederick's will. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schönhausen_Palace >> This was the place were Frederick's wife Elisabeth Christine of >> Brunswick-Bevern resided, as a result of Frederick's animosity towards her >> (he couldn't accept her in Potsdam). There is a strong evidence that >> Eleonore very often accompanied Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on >> regular basis. >> If this information is correct it becomes apparent the the instrument on >> Eleonore's portrait is not a stage prop. If she was to accompany the Queen, >> and I believe this is what must have been the case (I couldn't imagine the >> Queen accompanying Eleonore) it is very possible that Eleonore decided to >> transfer her lute into a continuo instrument. In short, what we can observe >> on the painting must have been her endeavors to please the Queen. If she was >> successful is another matter. >> >> Jaroslaw >> >> >> Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 14:24: >> >>> >>> Thanks for this Jaroslaw, >>> >>> You may be right, but Pesne wouldn't be the first good painter to get a >>> technical details wrong - perhaps of no real consequence to him. >>> >>> But if it is an absolutley precise depiction then some worrying things >>> about the general disposition of the instrument make me a bit sceptical >>> that any meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Noteably, the >>> first string running to the edge of the fingerboard at the neck/body >>> join even though the third nut grooves are used. >>> >>> Do we know is she actually played the lute or is this just an artistic >>> pose? If the latter this might be a dud lute being used as a sort of >>> stage prop. >>> >>> Martyn >>> --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote: >>> >>> From: JarosAA'aw Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten >>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 12:52 >>> >>> Dear Martyn, >>> It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a >>> painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We >>> can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into >>> direct conclusions is another matter. >>> First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy >>> of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of >>> Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his >>> other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing that is >>> incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one has to take into >>> consideration that the texture he used, especially to paint a >>> background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was >>> not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one >>> of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different >>> means of showing reality. He was a fine portraitist and had very good >>> powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to >>> paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care, >>> not knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of >>> centuries later who would dispute about these archaic instruments). >>> However what is of some interest to me i! >>> s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing >>> chantarelles, red strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and >>> a longish neck. How the first string is attached to the bridge is >>> difficult to say as I can't see anything apart from a whitish line over >>> the bridge which could mean a normal way of tying a string. As I said >>> before, we shouldn't expect the same level of clarity in details as in >>> some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If you are concerned about >>> asymmetry in placing the bridge I would say that we can not see where >>> exactly it ends on the bass side as it's covered by Lady's forearm. If >>> you judge it by the position of the last bass string it can be >>> misleading as the Lady could have moved all courses towards treble >>> side. Whether she played this instrument or not is not really important >>> here. >>> Then, what kind of instrument is this? My guess is that it could have >>> been an example of a German D-minor theorbo (the one that Weiss talked >>> about) rebuild from a normal 13 course lute. Why? >>> 1/ The time and place is correct - the portrait was painted in Berlin >>> in 1745 (some more info on Eleonore >>> [1]http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonore_von_Schlieben ). >>> 2/ We can't see the whole instrument, but it's clear that diapasons are >>> not attached in the 1st pegbox, so there must be another one somewhere >>> up there. Conclusion - the instrument has a long neck and 2 pegboxes. >>> Because of the time and place it is doubtful if it could be an >>> archlute. Then a swan neck lute or theorbo is possible. >>> 3/ The Lady took off trebles and the only reason for doing so could be >>> a need of transforming the lute into continuo instrument. >>> 4/ The octave stringing from the 3rd course down only confirm this >>> supposition. >>> 5/ The number of fingerboard frets can suggest that proportions of the >>> body to neck could have been changed in favor of the neck. It is >>> possible that the real proportions of this lute were not portrayed >>> correctly intentionally because of the constraints caused by the >>> composition of this painting. Lady's figure is centrally placed like an >>> axis of the picture, so it is possible that Pesne wanted to fit the 1st >>> pegbox within view. This in turn may suggest that it could be more >>> theorbo-like. >>> All in all it is a very interesting stringing idea - to use one D-minor >>> instrument alternatively for continuo or solo just by rearranging a >>> stringing. Obviously I can be totally wrong, but it gives me an idea >>> though. >>> All the best >>> Jaroslaw >>> WiadomoAA>Ae/= napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o >>> godz. 09:07: >>>> >>>> Dear Jaroslaw, >>>> >>>> It may be some sort of sport (in a modern biological sense), but I >>>> suspect either the painter didn't quite get it right - see how the >>>> first string is fastened not to the to the body of the bridge but >>> to >>>> the treble point! - or the neck is indeed incorrectly set (maybe in >>>> converting from an instrument with fewer courses the neck was not >>>> canted over to ensure the bridge remained central....... >>>> >>>> Do we know if she actually played the lute or is this just an >>> example >>>> of an elegant pose adopted simply for pictorial delight? >>>> >>>> Martyn >>>> --- On Thu, 19/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski <[2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> From: JarosAA'aw Lipski <[3]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten >>>> To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> Date: Thursday, 19 July, 2012, 20:45 >>>> >>>> here is a link if interested >>>> [1][5]http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portra >>> it-of-e >>>> leonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau- >>> von- >>>> keyserlingk.jpg >>>> JL >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>> 1. >>> [7]http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-e >>> leonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von- >>> keyserlingk.jpg >>>> 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> References >>> >>> 1. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonore_von_Schlieben >>> 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlip...@wp.pl >>> 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlip...@wp.pl >>> 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 5. http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-e >>> 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 7. >>> http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-eleonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von-keyserlingk.jpg >>> 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >> > > > -- >
