Dear David,
I well take your point about Hellwig's observations. But, it's not just
my observations of the Stautinger. More significantly here's what Mace
has to say (incidentally, he recognises the nerve-wracking aspect of
the operation and says " Then fear nothing, but boldly proceed to the
Uniting"....).
" ....anoint all the Edges Carefully round, where you know they must
Joyn, and every Barr-end be sure you touch well, ......" . Of course
Mace wasn't a professional builder or repairer but I presume he had
been originally instructed by a London repairer (he says if you don't
want to repair it yourself there's no choice but to pack it off to
London).
regardsa
Martyn
--- On Thu, 7/2/13, David Van Edwards <da...@vanedwards.co.uk> wrote:
From: David Van Edwards <da...@vanedwards.co.uk>
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Further to: Bar end supports on lutes
To: "William Samson" <willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Lute builder
Dmth" <lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Thursday, 7 February, 2013, 16:39
Yes, as far as I have observed no lutes were made using support
blocks, however obvious it would be to give strength. In fact one of
the commonest problems with amateur made instruments is the tendency
to make things too strong. It is a maxim to bear in mind that lutes
sound best when right on the point of collapse! Trembling with fear
as it were!
I do remember many years ago asking Friedmann Hellwig specifically
about whether he thought bar ends were glued to the ribs and he said
quite clearly that he thought not. Maybe accidental glue in the joint
there, but nothing deliberate he said. He has probably examined more
original lutes than anyone, so I'm inclined to take him seriously.
But of course this is not to deny Martyn's observation of the
Stautinger mandora, different makers probably had different
practices, even then.
Best wishes,
David
At 15:32 +0000 7/2/13, William Samson wrote:
> Dear Martyn,
>
> What you say makes perfect sense. I will continue to follow the
> example set by the old ones.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Bill
> From: Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: Lute builder Dmth <[2]lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, 7 February 2013, 14:46
> Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Further to: Bar end supports on lutes
> Further to the recent mailings about using supports to the bar
ends
> of
> lutes (as commonly found on guitars) to avoid then becoming
loose,
> there were few responses and the gist seemed to bit that it was
a
> good
> idea and unlikely to injure the instrument's tone.
> This may be the case, but I'd like to insert a note of caution:
as
> far
> as I'm aware no old lute has such bar end supports so we need to
be
> very careful before considering their general modern use.
Perhaps
> the
> slight angle between the rib and belly - a little less than a
right
> angle - provides sufficient end support if the bars are fitted
> precisely to the rib and at the exact same angle (not possible
on the
> guitar which is a right angle). And, of course, the vast
majority of
> lute makers did not seem to make guitars - and vice-versa (few
> exceptions such as Tielke of course and a some workshops) .
> One other factor which provides more secure bar end fixing
also
> occurs
> to me: Mace speaks of a method of sticking on the belly in one
> operation (and of ensuring the bar ends are very well applied
with
> glue). It's a procedure I now usually follow and, tho' it can be
a
> bit
> nerve-wracking, the capability of animal glue to be readily
remelted
> in-situ allows post fixing adjustments to be easily made (and
indeed
> Mace mentions this). If one makes a pig's ear of the whole
business
> one
> can remove again, clean up and try again next day. It occurs to
me
> that the (modern?) method of sticking on a lute belly by working
> slowly
> round trying to get glue into the join is fine - except when one
> comes
> to the bar end where it can be difficult to ensure one has
worked in
> sufficient glue - in short the bar end may be starved.
> The latest original historic lute I've been able to examine
inside in
> detail is a 1773 instrument by Stautinger which exhibits all
lute
> construction features and has no bar end supports. Altho an
internal
> repair had taken place to the back which had suffered a serious
dent,
> access had been made by the rose being cut out (and crudely
replaced
> after) rather than the belly being removed; the original belly
> fixing/gluing was still (I believe) in place - and the external
> wooden
> liner (as commonly found on 18th century lutes) seemed wholly
> undisturbed. All the bars were still glued securely to the sides
> (with
> quite a bit of squeeze out evident on a few too).
> In short, if the bar ends are closely fitted to the angled ribs
and
> sufficient glue is put onto the ends I think there is no need to
> consider additional supports like those being suggested. But I
> understand very high humidity, in the US especially, may be a
> contributory factor to bar end failure with which we here do not
have
> to cope......
> MH
> --
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>
> --
>
>References
>
> 1. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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