Dear Howard,
Donald Gill's important paper in The Lute (Journal of the Lute Society)
Vol XXVI (1986) 'Alternative Lutes: the identity of 18th century
mandoras and gallichons' is one of papers (other than my own) which
describes how Kuhnau's request to the school governors for 'colocion'
was turned down. As an aside, and in response to your recent enquiry,
I've previously speculated that securing a gallichon might also include
engaging the necessary player (much as a modern orchestra might require
a First Horn, say, for a particular work) whether temporarily or as the
permanent post Kuhnau seemed to be requesting.
The assumption that the gallichon was 'in common use' or that it was
used in churches aEUR~generally' as you believe still remains highly
questionable: although that it was in use in some places and for some
purposes is beyond doubt. But this doesn't get us very far either way
in seeing what might be the most likely instrument Bach himself
expected for his Markus Passion (the original question you may recall).
Again we must note that Bach asked for the lute in this work and not
for the gallichon (or cognates) which, as previously pointed out, was a
name commonly used by his contemporaries who actually required this
particular instrument. Of course, the lack of any designation to a part
could conceivably imply any instrument capable of playing a thorough
bass: but this is clearly not the case here where Bach specifically
asks for a lute - so it does matter and ought not to be ignored.
Moreover the part is an obbligato one, not the thorough bass generally
employed by the gallichon.
As already mentioned, as a gallichon player myself, I might wish that
the instrument was indeed more likely in this context - but sadly my
head must rule my heart and favour the (Dm) lute - tho in slightly
arranged part (required, since you ask, to make it playable) to better
suit the instrument's technical demands. In short, there really is no
evidence that Bach expected the gallichon to play this obbligato part -
although, of course, there is some evidence for its use as a thorough
bass instrument by a few other composers.
I'll copy in the full thread so others can follow the discussion
Martyn
From: howard posner <howardpos...@ca.rr.com>On Jul 20, 2013, at 1:11
AM,
Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Indeed Kuhnau did press (unsuccessfully!) the church authorities
for> one or two instruments to play continuo which he called
gallichons Is anyone aware of some piece of evidence as to what the
town council actually did about Kuhnau's gallichon request?
I've conversed with persons equally sure that the purchase was
approved, but they couldn't tell me how they knew. I'm intrigued, come
to think of it, by the notion that the player(s) wouldn't simply supply
his/their own gallichons. Maybe the instrument was new to those parts
in 1704.
> Further, a few other contemporary composers (noteably> Telemann)
wrote church cantatas with a designated gallichon part (NB> playing
from a thorough bass part and not an obligatto lute part as Bach
requires in this Passion). But this does not amount to gallichons
being in 'common use' at the time (personally, being a gallichon>
player, I wish otherwise - but wishful thinking is, alas, not solid
evidence for historic usage).
Kuhnau's statement that "we always have to borrow" gallichons is pretty
strong evidence that they were commonly used in Leipzig churches early
in his tenure as Cantor (responsible for music in the town's churches)
there. It is evidence, if less strong, for their use by his successor
Bach 20 years later. Matheson's statement that gallichons were useful,
and lutes useless, in church is pretty strong evidence for gallichons
in church generally. (It's also evidence for lutes in church, else
Matheson wouldn't have made his denigrating remark about lutes.)A
rarity of scores that specify gallichon means very little, because
continuo instruments were rarely specified. You could just as well
conclude, from the lack of scores specifying harpsichord, that
harpsichords weren't used in one setting or another.
> Whilst Bach might occasionally overlook designating a particular>
obbligato instrument, that is not the case here where he clearly calls>
for the lute (ie not gallichon or mandora). If he had required a>
gallichon there's no reason to suppose he wouldn't have used the term>
(as his contemporaries did - see above)
You just made a compelling case for regarding the statistical sample of
gallichon designations as inadequate, so seeing above doesn't get us
very far.> and that he was so ignorant or> vague as to employ a
generic term for all fretted plucked instruments.He might use a generic
term not because he was being vague or ignorant, but because it didn't
matter. He wasn't publishing a score for use outside the Thomaskirche,
and he wasn't writing for our benefit. He knew what instrument the
player was going to bring, and if the player always brought a
gallichon, that's the instrument Bach would have expected.>
In short, the burden of evidence points to Bach expecting the (Dm)
lute> proper in this Passion - any technical difficulties in playing
what he> wrote to be put down to his relative unfamiliarity with the
detailed> technical demands of the instrument. No doubt the player
would have> adjusted the part to make it technically possible (as in
the> intabulations we have of the lute works by contemporary
lutenists).I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the notion of
technical difficulty, only to knock it down as a straw man. Nobody
else is mentioning it. The argument for gallichon is that it projects
better in a large space and, being a continuo instrument, is likely to
have been present in the orchestra already. I jumped into the
conversation only because you made a blanket statement that there is
"no evidence" that Bach had gallichon in mind. Obviously, there is
evidence in the form of his predecessor's use of gallichon, and
indications that the gallichon was the preferred instrument in
churches.The question of instrument choice makes more intriguing the
question of why Bach replaced the lute/gallichon obbligatos in the St.
John and St. Matthew passions with organ in the St. John and gamba in
the St. Matthew. Did he find the original instrument unsatisfactory?
Did he write the parts for a specific player who retired or died or was
traded to Hamburg for a violinist and a singer to be named later?
From: Martyn Hodgson:
Dear Howard,
Thank you for a constructive response.
Indeed Kuhnau did press (unsuccessfully!) the church authorities for
one or two instruments to play continuo which he called gallichons (I
suggest large continuo instruments in A or B - but that's another
story). Further, a few other contemporary composers (noteably
Telemann) wrote church cantatas with a designated gallichon part (NB
playing from a thorough bass part and not an obligatto lute part as
Bach requires in this Passion). But this does not amount to gallichons
being in 'common use' at the time (personally, being a gallichon
player, I wish otherwise - but wishful thinking is, alas, not solid
evidence for historic usage).
Whilst Bach might occasionally overlook designating a particular
obbligato instrument, that is not the case here where he clearly calls
for the lute (ie not gallichon or mandora). If he had required a
gallichon there's no reason to suppose he wouldn't have used the term
(as his contemporaries did - see above) and that he was so ignorant or
vague as to employ a generic term for all fretted plucked instruments.
The Bach works I had in mind are those clearly designated for lute,
and not the keyboard works sometimes wrongly, in my view, also thought
to be lute works.In short, the burden of evidence points to Bach
expecting the (Dm) lute proper in this Passion - any technical
difficulties in playing what he wrote to be put down to his relative
unfamiliarity with the detailed technical demands of the instrument. No
doubt the player would have adjusted the part to make it technically
possible (as in the intabulations we have of the lute works by
contemporary lutenists).
Martyn
From: howard posner <howardpos...@ca.rr.com>On Jul 18, 2013, at 1:03
AM, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> There is no evidence that Bach had the gallichon/mandora in mind
for> this.There's rather stronger evidence than usual for gallichon in
German church music and particularly in Leipzig, if not specifically in
any Bach work. His predecessor Kuhnau wrote to the town council in 1704
asking for money to buy "at least one" gallichon, noted that its sound
was able to penetrate better than a lute and thus was "necessary for
all contemporary concerted music;" he wrote that 'we always have to
borrow" them but they weren't always available. A later memorandum
Kuhnau lists gallichons among the continuo instruments. He mentions
them each time in the plural. In Das neu-erAP:ffnete Orchestra (1713)
Matheson wrote that the gallichon was more useful in churches and
operas than the lute, the sound of which was too small "and serves more
to put on airs than to help the singer." This may not be sufficient to
establish the gallichon in Bach's music beyond reasonable doubt, but it
is strong evidence for its common use.
> The names were very well known at the time for specific> instruments
and widely used to distinguish them from the (Dm) lute> proper.This
would be important if Bach were always meticulous, precise and clear in
designating instruments in his scores, but he wasn't, as anyone who has
worked through his designations of the lower lines in the Brandenburg
Concertos (or puzzled about the "echo flutes" in Brandenburg 4) can
attest. He sometimes failed to designate an obbligato instrument
altogether; the unlabeled solo in cantata 90 that is now known as the
Hardest Trumpet Part Ever being a good example. The blank wasn't a
problem because the part would be given to the appropriate player at
the first rehearsal, and Bach knew what instrument that player would
use. He was working in a close community of musicians with established
working habits and conventions. He didn't have to be precise, just as
renaissance composers didn't have to write down whether or not
instruments would play with the singers at all, and didn't have to
write the text underlay. They were in charge of the performance in a
musical establishm!ent in which the composer and the musicians all knew
how things were done.
> Any use of the gallichon/mandora in this context is a modern
invention> - presumably to overcome perceived technical difficulties.
But if we> look at the extant Bach 'lute' works, there are many
similar (if not> more severe) comparable technical hurdles yet this
has not led to these> to being identified as gallichon/mandora
works.But several of them have been identified as keyboard works.
---- Forwarded Message -----From: Martyn Hodgson
<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
There is no evidence that Bach had the gallichon/mandora in mind for
this. The names were very well known at the time for specific
instruments and widely used to distinguish them from the (Dm) lute
proper.Any use of the gallichon/mandora in this context is a modern
invention - presumably to overcome perceived technical difficulties.
But if we look at the extant Bach 'lute' works, there are many similar
(if not more severe) comparable technical hurdles yet this has not led
to these to being identified as gallichon/mandora works. MH
Am 17.07.2013, 15:43 Uhr, schrieb Hilbert JAP:rg
<hilbert.jo...@t-online.de>:
> Dear all,>
> I was invited to play the continuo part of some arias of Bachs
Markus-Passion. Two lutes are requested, but that's all of the
information I have got. Does anybody know witch is the right lute type
to choose? Seams to be E or D keys the most time, so I would preferably
go for theorbo in A aEUR| but maybe Bach intension was more a gallicon.
Any other experiences or things one should know about this fragment?>>
Thanks for any help,> JAP:rg
__________________________________________________________________
From: howard posner <howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
To: Lute Dmth <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; lute List
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Sunday, 21 July 2013, 2:07
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Markus Passion by Bach
On Jul 20, 2013, at 1:11 AM, Martyn Hodgson
<[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Indeed Kuhnau did press (unsuccessfully!) the church authorities for
> one or two instruments to play continuo which he called gallichons
Is anyone aware of some piece of evidence as to what the town council
actually did about Kuhnau's gallichon request? I've conversed with
persons equally sure that the purchase was approved, but they couldn't
tell me how they knew.
I'm intrigued, come to think of it, by the notion that the player(s)
wouldn't simply supply his/their own gallichons. Maybe the instrument
was new to those parts in 1704.
> Further, a few other contemporary composers (noteably
> Telemann) wrote church cantatas with a designated gallichon part (NB
> playing from a thorough bass part and not an obligatto lute part as
> Bach requires in this Passion). But this does not amount to
gallichons
> being in 'common use' at the time (personally, being a gallichon
> player, I wish otherwise - but wishful thinking is, alas, not solid
> evidence for historic usage).
Kuhnau's statement that "we always have to borrow" gallichons is pretty
strong evidence that they were commonly used in Leipzig churches early
in his tenure as Cantor (responsible for music in the town's churches)
there. It is evidence, if less strong, for their use by his successor
Bach 20 years later. Matheson's statement that gallichons were useful,
and lutes useless, in church is pretty strong evidence for gallichons
in church generally. (It's also evidence for lutes in church, else
Matheson wouldn't have made his denigrating remark about lutes.)
A rarity of scores that specify gallichon means very little, because
continuo instruments were rarely specified. You could just as well
conclude, from the lack of scores specifying harpsichord, that
harpsichords weren't used in one setting or another.
> Whilst Bach might occasionally overlook designating a particular
> obbligato instrument, that is not the case here where he clearly
calls
> for the lute (ie not gallichon or mandora). If he had required a
> gallichon there's no reason to suppose he wouldn't have used the
term
> (as his contemporaries did - see above)
You just made a compelling case for regarding the statistical sample of
gallichon designations as inadequate, so seeing above doesn't get us
very far.
> and that he was so ignorant or
> vague as to employ a generic term for all fretted plucked
instruments.
He might use a generic term not because he was being vague or ignorant,
but because it didn't matter. He wasn't publishing a score for use
outside the Thomaskirche, and he wasn't writing for our benefit. He
knew what instrument the player was going to bring, and if the player
always brought a gallichon, that's the instrument Bach would have
expected.
> In short, the burden of evidence points to Bach expecting the (Dm)
lute
> proper in this Passion - any technical difficulties in playing what
he
> wrote to be put down to his relative unfamiliarity with the detailed
> technical demands of the instrument. No doubt the player would have
> adjusted the part to make it technically possible (as in the
> intabulations we have of the lute works by contemporary lutenists).
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the notion of technical
difficulty, only to knock it down as a straw man. Nobody else is
mentioning it. The argument for gallichon is that it projects better
in a large space and, being a continuo instrument, is likely to have
been present in the orchestra already. I jumped into the conversation
only because you made a blanket statement that there is "no evidence"
that Bach had gallichon in mind. Obviously, there is evidence in the
form of his predecessor's use of gallichon, and indications that the
gallichon was the preferred instrument in churches.
The question of instrument choice makes more intriguing the question of
why Bach replaced the lute/gallichon obbligatos in the St. John and St.
Matthew passions with organ in the St. John and gamba in the St.
Matthew. Did he find the original instrument unsatisfactory? Did he
write the parts for a specific player who retired or died or was traded
to Hamburg for a violinist and a singer to be named later?
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
