Hi All,
The guitarist and rock star, Jan Akkerman, had success performing his lute during rock concerts for large audiences in the 1970s. He still performs these days. Lute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZh9YPk3ZNM Rock band: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFDW9b_ejfI jazzed up Dowland : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D00iS7uMNAs Best, Mark Delpriora -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Shoskes <kidneykut...@gmail.com> To: Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net> Cc: David Tayler <vidan...@sbcglobal.net>; lute <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Fri, Aug 9, 2013 7:24 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness No disrespect meant at all to David Tayler. That was squarely delivered to the people making those comments about whichever videos he was talking about. The original quote: >>> Other Early Music musicians make constant and disparaging jokes about >>> the quality of the lute YouTube videos. They circulate them in groups >>> as joke emails, especially where two continuo players are playing the >>> same piece but playing different chords. Like major and minor at the >>> same time. It is one of the most common comments I hear in the pub >>> after an orchestra rehearsal. "Did you see this. OMG how could they not >>> know?" What they are saying is not only did they play the mistake, but >>> they are unaware that a mistake has been played. Of course, these same >>> commentators are not making their own solo videos, but still, it is a >>> litany. On Aug 9, 2013, at 7:08 PM, Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > "Being able to play figures off a baritone clef and transpose down a third while doing so has nothing to do with playing musically, collaboratively and with appropriate ornaments and affect." > > Yes it does. If you are stopped cold in your tracks by an unfamiliar clef, that will end the collaboration instantly. Not too much will happen in the way of ornamentation either. Of course, it has been said that what occurs between the notes, and the silences in music, also can have the greatest meaning- so I will give "affect" a pass. > > "What deep brand of stupid does it take to make a comment like "they > played the wrong chord and didn't even know"?" > > Is this disrespect necessary? Dr. Tayler has been in the music business for a lifetime- we have no knowledge of every single incident that transpired in all of his engagements over a long & busy professional career. I've seen/heard some pretty cringeworthy Early Music performances myself, but more in the earlier days of the Early Music revival. There have been a number of somewhat different "Bubbles" that we have all lived in; both in time, place, and circumstances. I have a couple hair of raising stories myself- playing the lute outside for some homeless people in the S.F. Fillmore district, gigs in honky-tonk rural bars, and one in a maximum security ward of a psychiatric institution in Manhattan. Wrong chords in bad places are really not an impossibility. > > Dan > > On 8/9/2013 2:35 PM, Daniel Shoskes wrote: >> I don't know who is living in the bigger bubble. I know lots of Early Music performers from diverse countries and backgrounds not to mention all the exposure from being on the Board of Directors of 3 music organizations (EMA, Apollo's Fire, LSA). I have never heard the laughably ridiculous characterizations you quote. I guess those lute players really are bottom of the barrel, directing BEMF, Tempesta di Mari and such. Really should replace O'Dette and Stubbs in Boston with a couple of cornetto players, that will finally raise the bar. >> >> This "no short cuts" business reminds me of what my Medical School anatomy professor told us about the good ol days. When he was a student, your anatomy exam included sticking your hand in a closed bag containing several small bones of the foot which you had to identify by feel. Fundamental skill? You could identify those bones by smell and still be unable to cut your way out of a paper bag in the operating room. It also reminds me of the life story of the great German baritone Thomas Quasthoff who was denied entrance to his local conservatory because all singers had to be able to play the piano. >> >> What deep brand of stupid does it take to make a comment like "they played the wrong chord and didn't even know"? I guess in their conservatory, they were taught to telegraph facially to the audience whenever they played parallel fifths or a wrong figure because of course that's the only way anyone in the audience would know. >> >> Being able to play figures off a baritone clef and transpose down a third while doing so has nothing to do with playing musically, collaboratively and with appropriate ornaments and affect. The stultifying performances of many a conservatory graduate can attest to that. I suggest a good reason for smart talented lute players NOT to have the same skill sets of these "top musicians" is that in fact they are smart and talented and have more fruitful things to do with their time (like tune and change frets). >> >> >> Danny >> >> >> On Aug 8, 2013, at 7:57 PM, David Tayler <vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >>> I think this is an interesting question, and I will risk posting an >>> honest answer. The answer depends on who is "The General Public". I >>> divide the groups as: the 200 countries of YouTube distribution, >>> Academics, other lute players, people in the Early Music scene, and >>> modern musicians, as these are the groups frequently mentioned here. >>> First off, however, I must note that at a good conservatory or college >>> offering a real music major, you are expected to play the piano, read >>> figured bass and pass a score reading exam using multiple staves of an >>> orchestra work and transposing clefs. >>> I mention this because of the puzzling stories about people who can >>> play the keyboard and transpose and so on. That is an entry level >>> skill, and a requirement. I had to take two years of piano to pass the >>> exam, along with all the other students, and that was to get just a >>> basic BA in music. Hours of piano lab, hours of practice, and everyone >>> had to do it, no exceptions. I had to take an even harder exam to be >>> admitted for the MA, which included a test in Fugue writing and >>> counterpoint. Basic training, basic training for just the BA. However, >>> in many European systems, the requirements are more strict. >>> So although I think it is cool that there are these stories, I think >>> the very fact that we tell these stories sends the message to the >>> General Public that, unfortunately, we didn't finish basic training. >>> And what kind of a message is that? Most professional musicians on the >>> violin, cello, piano, harpsichord, and so on, had to work to get these >>> skills just to get into the Conservatory. They expect everyone to do >>> these things fluently. This explains some of the "attitude" from modern >>> players. Rightly or wrongly, they look at the basic training. And they >>> had teachers who said, in a unified voice "no shortcuts." >>> And that in no way means that the people in the lute stories are not >>> good musicians, because they often are, but think for a moment if you >>> played in any original, historical French baroque opera what you would >>> have to do. You would have to read multiple clefs, including double >>> figured (figures on both sides of the staff) baritone clef with the F >>> on the middle line, and short score the other parts, none of which line >>> up with anything familiar. >>> Way harder than playing the piano. Most harpsichordists and organists >>> who play opera can do this, most lute players cannot do this. Yes, it >>> is harder on the lute. But the musical skills are the same and no >>> harder. >>> As far as the General Population of the Planet, the vast majority have >>> no idea what a lute is, and lute players would be regarded as an >>> historical oddity from movies and TV shows, e.g., cameo appearances of >>> "Game of Thrones" or "House." Followers of Sting would have a very >>> hazy idea that it is the funny looking instrument from Sting's foray >>> into Early Music, but not much more. Certainly the YouTube boom has >>> marginally improved awareness, however, most of the YouTube videos are >>> not intended to be recordings in the sense of a produced recording. >>> There's no one playing the lute on YouTube who can even remotely >>> approach the chops of say for example the 14 year old girl who plays >>> the Vivaldi Four Seasons on the guitar. The GPOTP may not know much, >>> but they know raw talent. >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIGfO2Dgc9Y >>> As far as other lute players, lute players are highly regarded. This >>> means we live in a bubble. >>> As far as other Early Music musicians, sadly, but undeniably, lute >>> players are regarded as the worst musicians. Bottom of the Barrel. That >>> is, there is no other instrument that has a lower reputation, with the >>> possible exception of the Krummhorn. The reason for this is >>> complicated, but basically has to do with anecdotal stories that >>> circulate about lute players in ensembles, basic sight reading, rhythm, >>> score reading, ensemble skills and so on. The situation has changed >>> slightly in the last few years, as more continuo players enter the >>> pool. However, recorder players, cornetto, harpsichord, organ, oboe and >>> viol players nowadays have advanced training, especially in notation >>> and ornamentation, but also in ensemble playing and rhythmic training, >>> that lute players just don't have. Their bar is higher. >>> Other Early Music musicians make constant and disparaging jokes about >>> the quality of the lute YouTube videos. They circulate them in groups >>> as joke emails, especially where two continuo players are playing the >>> same piece but playing different chords. Like major and minor at the >>> same time. It is one of the most common comments I hear in the pub >>> after an orchestra rehearsal. "Did you see this. OMG how could they not >>> know?" What they are saying is not only did they play the mistake, but >>> they are unaware that a mistake has been played. Of course, these same >>> commentators are not making their own solo videos, but still, it is a >>> litany. >>> I think the videos are a great thing, and of course many of them are >>> meant to be sharing, rather than comparing, but there is a PR downside. >>> As far as modern players, when I play with a modern orchestra like the, >>> the reception is normally warm and inviting. I don't get the reaction I >>> got thirty years ago. Orchestra players often have worked with >>> crossover conductors who are active in both worlds. >>> As far as academia, most people in a university environment will have >>> some idea of what a lute is, but not much more than "Game of Thrones". >>> Lute players are smart, talented people. There's no reason that they >>> can't have the same skill sets as the top musicians in the world, just >>> as they did in the renaissance. >>> dt >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> > --
