For me, Dan, it's a gut discussion. Watching how it moved in, out and
maybe back in a related instrument in its social and mechanical
dynamics is, I hope, instructive to a few lutenists; it certainly is
to me.
I'm sorry to hear about PR. He was spoken highly of by many here in
the area.
Sean
On Dec 11, 2013, at 8:55 AM, Dan Winheld wrote:
Chris-
Thanks for the clarification. Hazy second-hand stories get turned into
mythic certainties, blown out proportion- "Barrios Mangore, the South
American Indian playing classical guitar in the steaming Amazon
jungles, gut strings rotting out from under his fingers....." etc. The
truth makes a better story. And the direction this talk has taken has
convinced me to try gut on my classical guitar (Thank you, David v O!).
And of course the big bully Segovia's mythic status (not to take
anything away from him & his great works, but he did not "own" the
guitar and its destiny), domineering career moves, and rigid ways
obscuring the important works and legacies of so many other pioneering
and accomplished classical guitarists from the earlier parts of the
previous century.
As long as our little "This is a lute-talk, correct?" e-list has gone
so wonderfully off the rails to guitar-talk right now, there is also
some sad news to report- The great Jim Hall is no longer with us; died
a couple of days ago, aged 83.
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music-arts/jazz-guitarist-jim-hall-dead-83-article-1.1544434
Also, less well known, the S.F. Bay area's fallen star Phil Rosheger
also died, about a week ago. An extraordinary musician whose work
transcended mere classical guitar virtuosity; which he had in plenty,
pulled more sound & tone color out of a guitar than anyone else I've
heard in years. He composed a great deal; David Russel for one has
featured Phil's South American style waltzes on his own CD recordings.
I once consulted Phil for the only classical guitar lesson I've had
since about 1965 when I needed help interpreting Astor Piazzolla on
the lute. Not only was Phil totally cool- in fact, excited- about my
doing this music on the lute, he enthusiastically sat on my living
room floor playing and illustrating the basics of Tango, Habanero, and
other relevant subjects while seated in the half-lotus posture,
disdaining the hard backed chair & footstool that always seemed such a
basic & implacable de riguer element of the proper classical
guitarist's set-up. Phil has headed guitar departments of the San
Francisco Conservatory and Sonoma State.
RIP, Jim & Phil.
Dan
On 12/11/2013 6:04 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote:
Dan,
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 12/11/13, Dan Winheld<dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote:
In fact, before Dupont's nylon
came along, Agustin Barrios Mangore had to use steel
strings, as the greater part of his life and work was in
South America- no place for gut!
Barrios made a conscious decision to use steel strings. I've heard
the argument that he did so because South America was too humid for
gut, but that is not true as it was the normal string material for
other classical guitarists in South America. This includes the likes
of Domingo Prat and Segovia himself, who lived for many years in
Uruguay. Barrios was alone in championing steel and he came in for
criticism for it from his colleagues. (Segovia called it a "wire
fence." Barrios said that Segovia was "deaf in heart.")
Perhaps not coincidentally, Barrios was the first fingerstyle
classical guitarist ever to record, all the way back in the day of
acoustical recording technology. This is when performers played into
a horn (not a microphone) which physically transferred the sonic
vibrations through a stylus directly onto the recording medium. The
sound source had to be quite loud for this to happen. In contrast,
Vahdah Olcott-Bickford mentioned that Miguel Llobet tried to record
in the 1910's but the results were unsatisfactory. More
specifically, she said that, "acoustical recording was good for
steel string instruments like the banjo and mandolin, but the
classical guitar, with its gut strings, was more difficult to
record.â Llobet did eventually record after electrical recording
was invented. It seems that Barrios's steel strings were
significantly louder than gut.
Chris
Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
On 12/10/2013 9:30 PM, Sean Smith wrote:
>
> I realize the guitar was strung in gut before nylon's
appearance. Should I assume it had thicker diameters and
higher tensions (?) than the lute strings of KR and JB -
that is, if I understand Allan's note correctly that they
played gut-strung lutes? Their lutes were post-war lutes and
could have been nylon, right?
>
> I'm still curious about the gut strings and how
successful they are on the lutes of the people who play with
nails. Does such a combination exist on this list?
>
> There are many historical guitars that date from
pre-nylon days, too, and I suspect a few players of same
(strung in gut?) on this list. Maybe someone could speak to
how gut strings last on them?
>
> I'm just honestly curious about how the metal fret
(where applicable) / nails / gut string experience plays
out. Surely they wore out quicker than nylon but where?
why?
>
> Many years ago I saw an older Vandervogel lute/guitar
like that of my dad's (his from ~1950) but I believe older.
That one had scalloped frets. Would this have been a way of
dealing w/ the gut/metal fret wear? Was this done on
classical guitars, too?
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Dec 10, 2013, at 8:38 PM, sterling price wrote:
>
>Â Â Â Regarding nails on gut strings--even
people like Segovia used nails on
>Â Â Â gut for decades. I like those early
recordings of modern guitars strung
>Â Â Â with gut. I think nylon strings came
about after WWII.
>Â Â Â Sterling
>Â Â Â On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 7:46 PM,
Sean Smith<lutesm...@mac.com>
>Â Â Â wrote:
>Â Â Â Just to be sure, he used nails on
_gut_? Ragossinig, too? When I
>Â Â Â played those records in my childhood I
always assumed they were nylon
>Â Â Â strings. When would JB and KR have
moved to nylon?
>Â Â Â Sean
>Â Â Â On Dec 10, 2013, at 6:21 PM, Allan
Alexander wrote:
>Â Â Â Sean
>Â Â Â Bream used nails, so I guess it
started. So does Ragossnig
>Â Â Â Allan
>>
>> Since there appear to be lute players who use nails
- a club I
>Â Â Â haven't
>> joined and now I'm curious - I wonder if there are
there people who
>> use all gut and nails.
>>
>> Could they tell us their experience on how it
affects the the life of
>> the strings? Do they [the strings] wear
excessively? Do the thinner
>> ones need more frequent changing than the thicker
gut strings? After
>> they wear a bit and perhaps fray, is the intonation
affected? If so,
>> how?
>>
>> Wait, I thought of another. How about you orpharion
and bandora
>> players - do you use nails?
>>
>> Sean
>>
>> ps. we seem to be on a topic of nails (tho I can
readily see the
>> connection to the Bream thread) so forgive me for
re-subjecting this
>> offshoot of the thread. If it helps feel free to
respond to Bruno's
>> post as well under it.
>>
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2013, at 5:29 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
>>
>> It may sound good to you, but not for most of the
lutenists out
>> there.
>> Ask Hoppy about this issue? Ok, you don't need to
ask him, after
>> all you don't ride a horse to the gig... Hey, I'd
like to do that,
>> the traffic has been so bad nowadays.
>>
>> The most frequent word to describe the lute's sound
is sweetness!
>> How can you have achieve it with nails? Double
strings also require
>> that both strings be pressed at once and not one
after the other.
>> The lute is after all a sweet instrument (specially
with gut). Even
>> in
>> classical
>> guitar tutors (19th-20th century) the issue of
nails was still
>> rolling
>> on. Sor hated it and only tolerated Aguado because
of his great
>> skill.
>> That's why Tarrega and Pujol also avoided it (even
if it was a
>> requirement due to the high tension of the Torres
guitar).
>>
>> Going back: The sources were just saying that many
people were
>> careless
>> about their sound production. In order to avoid it,
what about
>> cutting
>> your nails once and a while, washing your hands
(daily if you can)?
>>
>> 2013/12/10 Mayes, Joseph<[1][1]ma...@rowan.edu>
>>
>>Â Â Â I play the lute, archlute and
vihuela with nails for the same
>> reason
>>Â Â Â that I
>>Â Â Â play the classical guitar with
nails: because it sounds better!
>>Â Â Â Of course, by that I mean it
sounds better to me. Nails give the
>>Â Â Â attack a precision that flesh does
not. It also comes closer,
>>Â Â Â IMHO to the sound usually
described in historical sources as
>>Â Â Â desirable on lute - silvery,
tinkling, etc. Many sources tell us
>>Â Â Â not to use nails - which they
wouldn't have bothered to do if
>>Â Â Â people were not doing it that way.
I don't play with flesh, I
>>Â Â Â don't ride my horse to the gig,
and I don't attend any
>>Â Â Â bear-bating. My $.02 Joseph mayes
>>
>>
>> --
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:[2]ma...@rowan.edu
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>
>Â Â Â --
>
> References
>
>Â Â Â 1.mailto:ma...@rowan.edu
>Â Â Â 2.mailto:ma...@rowan.edu
>Â Â Â 3.http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>
