Yes Dan, V is for Very bad idea.
Metal-wound would eventually cut their own channel though... maybe.
The best round channel is one that is a slightly larger diameter than your
string. Think of a U-shape channel semi-circle in shape that may (or may not)
include vertical walls. While it is as deep as you want it's the diameter at
the bottom that is key. A nut harder than the string will retain its shape and
depth. When using gut that shape will support its round shape but also give a
little space for it to relax/deform under tension at the bend.
When you switch to nylon/nylgut/etc for the upper pitch strings, the string is
now as hard as the nut and it will cut its new shape at the further expense of
depth - a hard string resting on one point and then rubbed into the bottom of
the channel as you tune. Eventually, if you switch to a larger string it will
grip the string. (If you switch to a larger gut it will grip that, too).
Granted, it takes time but we're talking many lute ages in this thread.
One thing I noticed about nylgut is that you end up with a smaller diameter
working string than gut. Using the "old" white ng I would use the same diameter
as gut but after getting it up to pitch I had taken up considerably more
string. What happens to the diameter? It gets smaller. With the NNG I find I
have to use a smaller diameter at the outset. Both of these nylgut situations
(and nylon) are effectively creating a smaller channel making it a potential
problem if you switch to gut for a period - or, to a larger plastic string.
I've noticed that suggested diameters for nylon are also smaller than those for
gut.
For the 3rd course it's not so much a problem but it's a snake in the grass in
the 2nd and a constant headache on the 1st and 4th octave.
I think of it as using non-OEM parts on a Very picky old sports car. (They may
work but at what expense to other systems?) Eventually I sold the MG and kept
the lute because MGs are so difficult to carry around - even their descant
models. And there is another comparison/metaphor* of gut strings to Lucas parts
that needn't be made here, ok?
Sean
*comparison for our purposes; metaphor if John Milton had had an MG.
On Nov 19, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Dan Winheld wrote:
John-
What technique? I was only joking; I simply count on a hard, highly
polished nut- ESPECIALLY polished & smooth in the nut grooves, and the
grooves themselves are as shallow as one can get away with to hold the
strings in place; a deep "valley" can hold strings up by too much
contact, and is also that much harder to make smooth. Obviously doesn't
matter how slippery & shiny the nut surfaces in between the string
grooves are. And if the groove is also "V" shaped rather than rounded,
the string will stick no matter what string/nut materials or tension.
All the other points have been covered by Sean.
Dan
On 11/19/2014 8:21 AM, John Mardinly wrote:
Dan;
Can you elaborate on this material/technique?
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer
EMail: [1]john.mardi...@asu.edu
Cell: [2]408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs)
Titan Lab: [3]480-727-5651
NION UltraSTEM Lab: [4]480-727-5652
JEOL ARM 200 Lab: [5]480-727-5653
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On Nov 11, 2014, at 4:33 PM, "Dan Winheld" <[10]dwinh...@lmi.net>
wrote:
Squirrels can't hold on to them- boxer shorts can't contain them- but
lutenists LOVE them.... SLIPPERY NUTS!
On 11/11/2014 8:14 AM, Sean Smith wrote:
Hi Herbert,
I have never heard of this problem on the 4th course with gut so
I'll assume you use metal wound strings. I'll admit it's an
assumption that could be false or you may be using a plastic of some
sort. It would be helpful to know in any event.
Using a string made up of coils that are harder than the nut
material could well have printed those coils on the groove of the
nut, especially if you have used a high tension or the nut is old or
of soft material or it has sat a long time at tension. The nut we
use for gut wasn't imagined to work this way with metal coils. The
lute was designed with a bone/ivory/wood nut that is harder than the
gut string. The gut spreads out to the smooth nut surface under
tension and at no point does it "dig in" (I'm not sure a plastic
string spreads like this but I doubt it). Using gut (and a little
beeswax now and then) I have no trouble adjusting the pitch -
assuming the strings and frets are true.
Citterns, orpharions and bandoras that use metal strings have the
lesser bend like the guitars you mention. It solves the bend/tension
problem for the materials given.
If you're inclined to use modern stringing and don't mind modern
workarounds, you might consider a modern angle to accomodate it. Or
maybe a steel nut ... and WD-40. It would be less colorful than 15
different loops of yarn though.
Sean
On Nov 11, 2014, at 12:46 AM, Herbert Ward wrote:
The bent-back pegbox means that a lute
has 7.5 times as much friction at
the nut as a guitar, taking angles of
10 degrees for the guitar and 80 for the
lute.
For the strings attached to the farthest
pegs (say, the fourth course) this friction
causes trouble because the strings stick
at the nut during tuning.
Graphite lubrication never helped me much.
Nor did tugging at the string, though it
seems this should work when tuning downward.
To fix the problem, I tied a loop of ordinary
household twine around the string in the peg-
box, and MOVED IT AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE TO
THE NUT.
Now I adjust the peg, and
then give a momentary tug on the loop. The
tug pulls the string almost completely away
from the nut, and thus equalizes the tension
along the entire length of the string.
In response, the pitch immediately and
reliably reflects the
slightest movement of the peg (in either
direction), as with a harp.
A side-benefit is that the peg stays pushed
in longer, since the peg is turned so little.
Of course, if you put loops on
multiple strings, then you have a mass of loops
from which it is difficult to find the one you
need. I've ordered a skein of multi-colored
knitting yarn to see whether color-coding will
reduce this problem.
To get on or off this list see list information at
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References
1. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu
2. tel:408-921-3253
3. tel:480-727-5651
4. tel:480-727-5652
5. tel:480-727-5653
6. tel:480-727-5654
7. tel:480-965-7946
8. x-apple-data-detectors://6/
9. x-apple-data-detectors://6/
10. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
