Dear Tristan, in all respect I strongly believe you're a victim of the described illusory truth effect. History tells us that the first Europeans to be in direct contact with the Indian subcontinent were the Portuguese starting a trading post in Calcutta in 1505 for spices (clove to start with). The British followed in 1605. I simply and categorically refuse to spend time on thinking of an Indian influence in a 1540 fantasia by Milano, regardless of how many times you repeat that 'it's obvious, one just would need to listen carefully enough.' I do not belittle or question the honesty of your research, I just refuse to believe the impossible.
Please let us not continue exchanging arguments, there was a period of that a few months ago and it didn't lead anywhere. Best regards and respectfully Jurgen ---------------------------------- “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On 9 August 2018 9:26 PM, Tristan von Neumann <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: > Dear Jürgen, > > posting an article about the Illusory Truth Effect does not in anyway > touch my findings, as the mere existence of such effect does enable you > to apply it to everything you disagree with. > If you disagree, you are welcome to discuss the claims on the subject > itself, otherwise it is not helpful. > It's like applying the phrase "Most conspiracy theories have no basis" > to every claim that disagrees with reported events, regardless of the > validity of the claim. > > Anyway, if my findings were null and void, you could also throw many > commonly done things into the bin: > The search for "vocal models of fantasias" is the same thing. If a > soggetto and subsequent similar harmonic structure with motifs from a > chanson make the Fantasy based on that chanson are accepted, why do you > deny any connection with Indian music? > > From my point of view, the similarity of many ricercars and fantasies > of the 16th century stem from the common Raga models used as the > framework of a composition. The Siena Ms. is a model example of this > similarity, and the book is even organized to display these similarities. > The unclear concept of "mode" in the 16th century with the disagreement > of cadence points etc. makes sense if mode is used as a concept like > Raga. Different cadence points in the same scale are hallmarks of > different Ragas. European theorists thought in terms of scale. > This is also a problem in modern Indian musicology, because Bhatkhande > organized the music in 10 scales that don't distinguish enough the > properties of Ragas because up and down scales are often different. > The difference between up and down scale is to my knowledge not > recognized enough by European theorists either, hence the problematic > concept of mode. > > From a historical standpoint, I am waiting to be able to cite from Lisa > Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation, as she already found what I was > looking for - historical musical transfers and proof of early deep > reception of Indian music. > > So please Jurgen, if you already recognize that this is least fitting > together, why not do something productive like play Fantasies in Indian > tempo, or even to Ragas to see what it's like? > The whole idea is to find ways to play this music together live. > > The York festival recently had a "Dhrupad - Renaissance" concert where > Indian music and Renaissance Music were played side by side, though not > simultaneously. It's only a matter of time until someone does live what > I do in the mashups. > Said concert will be broadcast in September on BBC, I'll post the link then. > > http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-festival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-great-national-centre-for-early-music/ > > Am 09.08.2018 um 07:11 schrieb Jurgen Frenz: > > > For what it's worth, here is a reminder of an experiment how false claims, > > repeated over and over again, become accepted by some individuals. Tristan, > > I see your attempts to convince people precisely in this line of practice. > > To simply your google research, here's a link to a wiki article > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect > > Enjoy reading > > Jurgen > > > > “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” > > Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ > > On 9 August 2018 2:07 AM, Tristan von Neumann tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > > wrote: > > > > > This version is even better. > > > Imagine this is the late 16th century singing by the Donne di Ferrara or > > > similar groups... > > > https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-eri-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii > > > Am 08.08.2018 um 19:22 schrieb Tristan von Neumann: > > > > > > > Dear Lutists, > > > > Francesco and Ganassi fans will rejoice over this sweet unification as > > > > Ronu Majumdar plays quite some improv "over" the Francesco background. > > > > https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-raga-kamod-ronu-majumdar > > > > Sorry for the not so beautiful playing, it's quite heavy for me to > > > > concentrate on the groove while playing right. > > > > But I hope to prove a point - that is that the criteria of choice in the > > > > Siena Ms. seem to be conciously implying that modes also have a certain > > > > overarching structure that must be followed, hence the great similarity > > > > in many of the fantasies of the same mode. > > > > Maybe a better lutist than yours truly can do a better mix - the Raga is > > > > to be found on youtube and can be used as a playback. > > > > I did not change the pitch, so this should work with a G lute. > > > > Also other places to insert this or similar fantasies may appear when > > > > trying something. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
