Dear Arthur,
allow me to weigh in on the "on en dira".
During that time, known melodies of chansons serve as models.
It is highly probable that the other voices were improvised anyway
(chord based modern instrumental counterpoint as opposed to oldschool
vocal polyphony).
So it makes sense to say "Sermisy", if he indeed invented the melody.
Otherwise you need a new name for the model.
Later, in Instrumental Canzonas (some are intabulated, see Barbarino and
Donaueschingen),
many unknown models are used or they are named differently, but the
melody or soggetto is the same or very similar to older chansons.
This is very confusing.
Some possible intabulations of Instrumental Canzonas are even named
"fantasy", like in Molinaro.
The first one, for example is classic Chanson style, also some of
Dowland's Fancies are similar.
I assume people of the 16th century would always have named the piece
after a chanson with the same model, if they can think of any.
I don't like the terms "parody" or "paraphrase".
The case of Albert de Rippe's "Pour ung plaisir" fantasy and the similar
ones in Siena and Paris 429 come to mind.
There is an underlying model to all of these and the chanson that is
more than the mode, but not the actual chanson.
The search for chanson models of certain fantasies are futile - there
might be no Chanson, the models are invented, or searched (Ricercar...).
Also the "Grefinger" Fantasy by Albert - or is it a "Gombert" Fantasy?
Same model.
The only real thing I know of are the Paladin Intabulations/Fantasy
pairs where we can be sure they are meant as some kind of "paraphrase".
(I won't say "Raga", but these new models are the real concept of the
16th century, not the modes which fail to describe pieces like Pierino's
Fantasia No. 18 in Siena.)
Recommendation: Frank Heidlberger "Canzon da Sonar" (in German) to get
an overview of the genre beyond Lute music.
A good read that questions the terminology and shows the confusion.
:)
T*
On 13.08.19 22:13, Arthur Ness wrote:
You might want to check, especially, pages 301-04 and 329-30 in vol.
1. And the concordances and cognates and thematics in vol. 2.
By the way "On en dira" is not by Sermisy. The two chansons share the
same melody, but otherwise the settings do not agree.
There is a direct concordance with one intabulation B[ernardo] N. in
Munich 1511d (Sermisy or Le Peletier "Si mon malheure") with the same
piece in the Marco fascicle. It is not unusual for a composer to
include a few works by others (sometimes ones students) in a collected
"edition" of a prominent composer. Marco's father was named Bernardo,
but pieces by Sermisy generation composers would seem to modern for a
person old enough to be Marco's father. I suggest possible lutenists
named Bernardo in a footnote 36 of p. 304. (I seem to have had a
Newsidler obsession back then.)
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. <sa...@gerbode.net>
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2019 9:17 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Original composers of some songs
I don't think I am using HTML....
I have a copy of Art's dissertation, and it is searchable.
I will check what I can glean from there.
Thanks!
--Sarge
> Don't use HTML!
>
>
>> ---
>>
>> I am busy working on the next 50 pieces from the Herwarth MS, trying
to
>> figure out who composed what.
>
> I assume you are talking about 266, right?
> There are several "Herwarth manuscripts".
>
> Anyway, have a look at Arthur's dissertation:
>
> The Herwarth Lute Manuscripts at the Bavarian State Library, Munich
> (Part 1) - A bibliographical study with Emphasis on the Works of
Marco
> dall'Aquila and Melchior Newsidler by Arthur J.Ness, February 1984
> (PhD Dissertation, New York University)
>
> The Herwarth Lute Manuscripts at the Bavarian State Library, Munich
> (Part 2) - A bibliographical study with Emphasis on the Works of
Marco
> dall'Aquila and Melchior Newsidler by Arthur J.Ness, February 1984
> (PhD Dissertation, New York University)
>
>
> It is available at the LSA web pages (possibly to members only) and
> the text is searchable (probably run through some OCR Software).
>
> Rainer
>
> PS
>
> If you don't have (access to) the dissertation ask me - or Arthur :)
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
