I agree with Konstantin on that! Monteverdi is half way between modality and tonality whereas Campion is completely tonal already... Best wishes, Jean-Marie
> Le 5 févr. 2020 à 13:09, Konstantin Shchenikov <konstantin.n...@gmail.com> a > écrit : > > Mr. Hodgson, > You certainly have your right to disagree. Could you just satisfy my > curiosity by pointing me out the sources of the early XVII c, > describing the rules of octave? > All sources I read tells the opposite: no connection with steps of the > scale, such a thing has not even been mentioned. Only connection with > scale - natural or #/b intervals above the bass, depending not on the > step of the bass (as octave rule does), but depending on the next step > of the bass (bass movements). > I wouldn't overcomplicate mr. Probert's task, rules by Bianchiardi are > more simple than octave rule. And if one has a little idea about > Monteverdi's style, things cannot be clarified in a couple of words. > Here is Agazzari, for instance, page 7 of the PDF contains the good > example of realisation, it might be good for the beginning. Just play > and analyze. > [1]https://imslp.org/wiki/Del_Sonare_sopra'l_basso_con_tutti_li_stromen > ti_(Agazzari%2C_Agostino) > If one has time, the good idea come through the sources and get the > idea (or meet in person someone more experienced). If not, just don't > take so much care and do your best for now. As I told, I see no big > problem with d-minor tuning. > In Monteverdi's times continuo is more simple in terms of harmony, my > teachers (like Andrew Lawrence King) told me to avoid complicated > figuring most of the time. > 53 or 6 chords, 7/6 and 4/3 suspensions are good solution for most of > the time (and 5/4-5/3 without 6/4 - 5/3 for most of the cadances) and > let the voice do the rest - dissonances, clashes, dischords - if it's > occurs, are stylish. > F.T.Arnold in his book "the Art of Accompaniment from a thorough-bass" > showed a lot of examples. > And good luck with this beautiful music! > K. > ÑÑ, 5 ÑевÑ. 2020 г., 14:02 Martyn Hodgson > <[2]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>: > > I can't agree with that assertion - it mostly does. But, in any > case, > I didn't wish to over-complicate the matter for Mr Probert > MH > On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 10:53:14 GMT, Konstantin > Shchenikov > <[3]konstantin.n...@gmail.com> wrote: > WARNING! Rule of the octave doesn't work at the Monteverdi's > times! > In fact, theory has changed. > In XVII c. bass movements does matter (on what interval and in > what > direction bass moves) without any correspondances with step of > the > scale. Check the rules in Bianchiardi "Breve regola per imparar a > suonare" for figuring (and preface to Viadana's "Cento concerti > ecclesiastici"). Arpeggiation is in use, check the prefaces in > Piccinini's "Libro Primo" and Kapsberger's "libro quattro di > chitarrone". > Some tips about little passages, passing notes and rhythmical > treatment > and several examples can also be found in Agazzari's "Del suonare > sopra'l basso" and Bianciardi mentioned above. > Turning to the instrument, you can use your high range, which > absents > on theorbo. But archlute has high range as well, and it's the > other > continuo instrument of XVII cent. And some archlutes could have > octave > basses. I, personally, see no problem with d-minor tuning, but > the > sound is different from archlutes, so the whole idea must be > close, but > not the same. > Good luck! > ÃÃ, 5 Ãà µÃ ²Ã. 2020 à ³. à ² 13:20, Martyn Hodgson > <[1][4]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>: > Howard's advice is very sound. > In practice, go through the score and figure up the bass > part > using the > 'rule of the octave'; and generally employ 6 chords where > the > bass is > sharpened; and also use the occasional suspension (eg 7 - > 6 or > 4-3) to > taste (though an occasional passing clash with the upper > lines is > perfectly acceptable in this repertoire). > Always checking, of course, with the vocal lines; so that > for > example, > bars 22-23 will be generally figured [ 6(3) - 7/5 ] > [(5)4 - # > ]. > Whether you play a major chord on bar 24 or a bare fifth is, > perhaps, > also a matter of taste. > Insert the usual cadential formula as necessary, for > example, a 4 > - 3 > in bar 27 > Then simply play the chords (three parts is probably all > you'll > need) > Here's a clean version to work on > [1][2][5]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > MH >> On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 07:22:51 GMT, howard posner >> <[3][6]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: >> On Feb 4, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Mark Probert > <[2][4][7]probe...@gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> Suppose I given a piece of early >> Baroque music, take Monteverdi's duet "Ardo e scoprir"[1] > by > way of >> specific example, and I want to create a passable continuo > line > to >> support the singers (potentially with me singing one of > lines). >> >> I come armed with my lute, an a-historic Dm 13c lute, a > certain > amount >> of theory, but no real clue apart from "play the indicated > root" and >> "arpeggiate the triads". > Neither of those is necessarily a good idea, especially if > by > "play the > indicated root" you mean assuming the bass note is the root > of > the > chord. But if you know the basic rules (you're familiar with > the > rule > of the octave?) you can get most of the harmonies right > without > too > much trouble. >> Given this is akin to asking "how do you realize a bass," > can > anyone >> point me in the direction of how you start such a journey > on a > lute? > If you want to learn how to do it, I'd start with Nigel > North's > "Continuo Playing on the Lute, Archlute and Theorbo." If you > just > want > to slap something together for a specific piece, you might > get a > realized version (which will probably be intended for piano) > and > alter > it to suit your needs. >> And if the theory is much different using a Dm lute rather > than > theorbo? > The theory doesn't change. A major chord is a major chord > and a > suspension is a suspension. You'll have higher notes than a > theorbo > has, but less volume and sustain. Sometimes this means > playing a > busier > accompaniment to keep the sound going (good luck with that > if > you're > singing at the same time). > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [3][5][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. [6][9]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 2. mailto:[7][10]probe...@gmail.com > 3. > [8][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. mailto:[12]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 2. [13]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 3. mailto:[14]howardpos...@ca.rr.com > 4. mailto:[15]probe...@gmail.com > 5. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 6. [17]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 7. mailto:[18]probe...@gmail.com > 8. [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. > https://imslp.org/wiki/Del_Sonare_sopra'l_basso_con_tutti_li_stromenti_(Agazzari,_Agostino) > 2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:konstantin.n...@gmail.com > 4. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 5. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 6. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com > 7. mailto:probe...@gmail.com > 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 9. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 10. mailto:probe...@gmail.com > 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 12. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 13. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 14. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com > 15. mailto:probe...@gmail.com > 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 17. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 18. mailto:probe...@gmail.com > 19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
