Enrique S Gonzalez Di Totto wrote:
Citando a Stephen Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
LyX developers already try to make the menus easier and
toolbars more available for _all_ users. I don't think Rich resents
making things easier, but the completely ignorant notion that making
Lyx menus more like Word menus would accomplish such a goal.
First of all, calling any suggestion a "completely ignorant notion"
contributes more to a flame war than to intelligent debate. Particularly
if by your own admission you are assuming a lot of things to be implied
by my original post.
I wrote this when I thought there was nothing to debate. My description
was meant to be factual not insulting, I purposefully avoided the term
stupid. I still think this idea is completely misguided by your lack of
information. However, Steve Litt, who I think is way more expert than I
am on this matter, has come out in favor of your idea. If he is correct,
then I am the way-undereducated dummy. It is already very easy to make
a simplistic layout file that works.
--------------------------------------------------------
http://wiki.lyx.org/Layouts/CreatingLayouts
"Find the basis class for your new class. Lets assume, the LaTeX class
amcsiggraph.cls is a descendant of article.cls, then the lyx layout to
use is article.layout. Save the following to a file acmsiggraph.layout
in your layouts directory (~/.lyx/layouts/ on UNIX):
#% Do not delete the line below; configure depends on this
# \DeclareLaTeXClass[acmsiggraph]{ACM SigGraph}
# Read the definitions from article.layout
Input article.layout
----------------------------------------------------------------
So your menu idea has to be simpler or more effective than this
method described above and I don't see it at all. So I did assume
that you meant something more, like the average Word user can
select from a subset of Latex codes, perhaps with a more
meaningful name, and produce a visually optimized appearance.
IOW, it would do the tweaking for you, or the average Word user.
There is no such program for anyone, Latex genius or Word user,
and there will not be for years to come (if ever).
The original poster, Enrique said in part:
So what I meant to say is that providing the user with a graphical
interface where they can create layouts and customize the few usual
options for an enviroment (font family, size, spacing, etc.) would allow
them to get started. Most users wouldn't need to write even a single
line of LaTeX code (either in a .layout or in an ERT inset) if you gave
them that.
SH: Looking at how incredibly difficult it is to create a .layout
What is incredibly easy for the advanced user is a major roadblock for
the casual user. Call it what you may, the casual user wants to get
stuff done without having to learn much in the process.
You didn't recognize this as sarcasm. It takes about 90 seconds to
create a simple layout file using the method described above, where you
don't create one from scratch, but modify a pre-existing layout file.
"Find the basis class for your new class"; presenting a small challenge.
Right now, creating a .layout requires to:
- Do stuff outside the LyX GUI
- Write code (opening the door to potential typos, for example)
Both are major no-no's when designing software for the casual user. Most
casual users simply won't be up to these tasks.
The quick and dirty method mostly requires cut and paste and Save As,
or import as lines (.layout is a text file) and edit specific values
from the older layout file used as a model.
But for this to be useful one needs to test the tweaking. You seem
to think writing code is the issue which is susceptible to typos.
I don't. I think knowing what code to write is the issue, what the
code does. How can you select from a menu-driven interface the
correct option if you don't already know what the option/function
(latex/lyx code) already does?? This is not a problem just for the
Word average user, but for any Lyx user. Automatically creating
a brand new layout file that does what you envision is beyond state
of the art software.
I think your mis-impression is that what is a learning curve for
the average LyX user can be simplified so that the learning is
erased for the average Word user. I don't think this will be
possible for years to come. The layout menu program can provide
choices for selection with a mouse-click, but is going to offer
very little intelligence about what choices (and their values)
ought to be made to produce the desired tweaked appearance output.
The layout menu program isn't going to eliminate the many cycles
of polishing reruns of the layout file, similar to polishing a
Wiki post but more complicated.
As a software designer, one can have an elitist attitude and say "If the
user can't do this, (s)he's too stupid/lazy to use the program". But I
think the creators of LyX would very much like it to be as mainstream as
Word. In various documents they state the WYSIWYM paradigm is better for
most tasks people use Word for nowadays.
I doubt if any of the developers are that much out of touch with
reality. One can use Word or Xemacs to write email. I have written
email using LyX and it takes much longer. LyX is not intended to
replace and will never have the purpose of replacing Word for
routine tasks, it is a smaller more specific program. LyX is a
front-end for Latex. Latex was invented to beautifully typeset
largish scientific documents (+100 pages).
Word has for years failed as program of choice for technical writers,
mainly because of the Master Document misbegotten feature. FrameMaker
and Latex/Tex with front-ends have filled that void. OpenOffice
already competes with Word on its own range of scope. Your last
paragraph is failing, not-to-clever- rhetoric. I don't think even
Bo Peng would subscribe to the fantasy: "the creators of LyX would
very much like it to be as mainstream as Word. What silly nonsense.
Stephen
