John, Tiger was almost 9 years ago, that is a long time ago, so for the Mac in 2013 still not being able to provide a fully accessible business level or decent level education class word processing and spreadsheet solution is not acceptable in my book. Also, I do not think Voiceover is on par with JAWS or WindowEyes. Granted these products do cost extra and Voiceover is built right in, but Apple need to get their core products to fully support it.
Don't get me wrong, I am a complete mac fan boy, but for anyone to think the Mac with a screen reader can compete in the world of productivity is deluded and taking the mac fan boy cool are to the extreme. Voiceover needs to be more polished and so does Zoom. The Mac is a more mature product than iOS, but at the core ios IS still Mac OS X but compiled to run on a ARM processor instead. I think it has gone beyond us all kissing Apple's ass and being ever so grateful for them building in a screen reader, they now need to make the product more useful if it is going to be taken more serious. It really is a shame that a third party has not developed their own screen reader for the Mac which is able to take things to the next level for the professional. I guess you and I live in different worlds John and have different needs. I respect your opinion however and I am happy the Mac meets your needs. Chris On 21 Jul 2013, at 17:01, John Panarese <jpanar...@mac-access.net> wrote: > You are comparing two different animals, Chris. I also think you are being > a bit dismissive. Remember that iOS accessibility came very early in the > game while accessibility with Mac OS X has been going on at the same time > Apple has literally been rewriting all of their core applications. Of course > iOS is going to seem like it's taken leaps and bounds forward with > accessibility over the last few years. There have been several additions to > VoiceOver on the Mac, but they don't measure up the same comparing them to > basic iOS accessibility advances. At the same time, though, progress with > Mac OS has continued and for those of use who remember Tiger, I think it's > safe to say that Apple has definitely made the Mac just as viable as a > Windows solution. I have no doubts that Mavericks will only improve > accessibility and things will only go forward. > > > Take Care > > John D. Panarese > Director > Mac for the Blind > Tel, (631) 724-4479 > Email, j...@macfortheblind.com > Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com > > APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION > > AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE > > MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT > > > > > On Jul 21, 2013, at 9:25 AM, Chris Moore <moor...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > >> John, >> >> My reference to Mac OS X being half baked, was in comparison to iOS. >> Voiceover has come on leaps and bounds on iOS since 2009. Has Voiceover >> come on leaps and bounds on Mac OS X since 2009? There have been some >> improvements yes, still numerous bugs and major missing features. Probably >> the only major VO features since 2009 has been support for drag and drop and >> additional voices. >> >> IS Mac better than Windows? out of the box, yes. narrator has a long way to >> go still, but has also come on leaps and bounds since Windows 7. Is >> Voiceover better or more advanced than JAWS? hell no. >> >> Ok Voiceover is integrated into the OS, but not much use if many >> applications don't adhere to standards for VO to support, and these >> applications include many from Apple too. >> >> In the real world, the Mac is fine for reading email, surfing the web, using >> Skype, and chatting with friends or writing the odd blog. >> >> iWork is a joke with voiceover and yes I know some users have a relevant >> level of success if you are prepared to jump through hoops. You can't >> compare using iWork with voiceover and using JAWS or NVDA on Windows with >> Microsoft Office. Nothing even comes close to it on the Mac in terms of >> accessibility. VO can't even read what is exactly on the screen half the >> time, it makes too many assumptions. >> >> To be productive I want to be able to use Dreamweaver, a decent word >> processor including tables, and use complex spreadsheets, access share >> point, use web development tools, edit MIDI data, read PDF documents that >> also include their elements such as headings, tables and enter data within >> form fields of a PDF. The Mac with voiceover struggles with all of these >> tasks. So in my opinions it is not very productive in the world of >> business. Voiceover can't even read tables or headings in documents. >> >> However, I still use my Mac on a daily basis as I do like the email client, >> and using the rotor in Safari, despite some web pages causing VO to crash >> and not being able to handle some pages correctly. >> >> I guess we'll see how committed Apple are to accessibility on the Mac when >> the next release of iWork comes out eh? Very disappointed accessibility had >> not been improved within Logic X, and I really hope VO support is enhanced >> in both Pages and Numbers. I would like to see the various bugs I have >> submitted be plugged also. Apple are quick to fix bugs which do not relate >> to accessibility, and it seems the only time VO gets an update or has a bug >> fixed is with each major OS update, which is very frustrating. >> >> Apple have done very little to improve accessibility for low vision users >> too. This is why AI Squared have had to release ZoomText for Mac, as >> Apple's built in offerings are so poor. An accessible Office suite from >> Microsoft and accessible products from Adobe such as Reader and Flash would >> be welcome (Flash not as important these days though). In the meantime, we >> can hardly point the finger at Microsoft and Adobe if Apple can't even make >> all their software accessible. >> >> Those are the facts, and I have been a Mac user since 2000, but I admit only >> as a blind user since 2010. >> >> I have not tested Maverick, so I might b very surprised and learn that it is >> truly wonderful. Here's hoping eh? >> >> Chris >> >> On 20 Jul 2013, at 19:28, John Panarese <jpanar...@mac-access.net> wrote: >> >>> OK, maybe I am missing something here, but I am reading some of the most >>> ridiculous and assumption ridden posts in this thread. How in the world >>> can you say the Mac is half-baked? The Mac is just as accessible as >>> Windows at this point, and for whatever weaknesses you can point out in OS >>> X, I can equally find in Windows. I know blind people productively using >>> the Mac every day for their work, and I can give you several testimonials >>> from former Windows users who will flat out tell you that Mac accessibility >>> is superior to that in Windows hands down. I just had this conversation >>> with a client who is a former JAWS user who was using Windows since 1994 >>> and still uses Windows because he paid for a SMA. >>> >>> In any event, to assume Apple is done with accessibility or has done so to >>> legally get by is a generally opinionated statement that has no factual or >>> concrete evidence beyond personal belief. How far the Mac has come since >>> Tiger, including Lion to Mountain Lion, is proof enough, and if it’s not >>> satisfactory enough to you, that is your problem and not a general >>> reflection of the state of accessibility among most blind Mac users. Is it >>> perfect? Of course not. I can list the flaws as readily as anyone else, >>> especially since I train folks to use the Mac every day. However, as I >>> said, I can list just as many in Windows, if not more in some regard. >>> Also, well, show me an operating system the blind can use with perfection. >>> We can go on and on about our accessibility gripes about every operating >>> system, but in many cases, the reality does not truly reflect our narrow >>> world views of things. >>> >>> >>> >>> Take Care >>> >>> John D. Panarese >>> Director >>> Mac for the Blind >>> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com >>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com >>> >>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION >>> >>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >>> >>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:31 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Chris, >>>> >>>> Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there >>>> are things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that >>>> applies to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. >>>> >>>> The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it >>>> is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, >>>> more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) >>>> have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really >>>> shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that >>>> some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want >>>> longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. >>>> >>>> Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those >>>> who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at >>>> this stage. >>>> >>>> Dónal >>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore <moor...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac >>>>> is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a >>>>> productive tool for the blind. >>>>> >>>>> I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. >>>>> We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream >>>>> press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap >>>>> Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each >>>>> time a new OS comes out. >>>>> >>>>> We need to keep making a noise and more of it. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Chris, >>>>>> >>>>>> Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've >>>>>> been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of >>>>>> accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent >>>>>> on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with >>>>>> justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU >>>>>> disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is >>>>>> dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as >>>>>> good as it's going to get. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> >>>>>> Dónal >>>>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, "Chris Gilland" <ch...@clgproductions.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, >>>>>>> and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug >>>>>>> reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. >>>>>>> In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in >>>>>>> Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't >>>>>>> legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got >>>>>>> back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know >>>>>>> about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way >>>>>>> it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I >>>>>>> paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! >>>>>>> Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah k Alawami" >>>>>>> <marri...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> To: "Mac OSX & iOS Accessibility" <mac-access@mac-access.net> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I >>>>>>> doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not >>>>>>> ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. >>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory <joshkar...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This reminds me of humanware, LOL. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick >>>>>>>> <dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care >>>>>>>>> (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled >>>>>>>>> themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Does my sarcasm come across? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dónal >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (message starts) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>> Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in >>>>>>>>> Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving >>>>>>>>> accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this >>>>>>>>> goal. >>>>>>>>> Apple Accessibility >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (message ends) >>>>>>>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>>>>>>> School of Computing, >>>>>>>>> Dublin City University, >>>>>>>>> Glasnevin, >>>>>>>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>>>>>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>>>>>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>>>>>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Email Disclaimer >>>>>>>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and >>>>>>>>> are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised >>>>>>>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any >>>>>>>>> attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail >>>>>>>>> in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views >>>>>>>>> or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the >>>>>>>>> author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City >>>>>>>>> University. 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We assume neither liability nor responsibility >>>>>>> should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>>>> and worm-free. 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We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>> >>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>>> >>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>>>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>>> >>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>> >>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>> >>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>> School of Computing, >>>> Dublin City University, >>>> Glasnevin, >>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>> >>>> Email Disclaimer >>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are >>>> intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, >>>> distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly >>>> prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the >>>> sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this >>>> e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as >>>> being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this >>>> cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and >>>> Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or >>>> their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this >>>> e-mail." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>> >>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>>> >>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>>> >>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >>>> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >>>> unpredictable happen. >>>> >>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>> visiting the list website at: >>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>> >>> >>> Take Care >>> >>> John D. Panarese >>> Director >>> Mac for the Blind >>> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com >>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com >>> >>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION >>> >>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >>> >>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>> >>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>> mac-access@mac-access.net >>> >>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >>> >>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >>> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >>> unpredictable happen. >>> >>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>> visiting the list website at: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>> >> >> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >> >> To reply to this post, please address your message to >> mac-access@mac-access.net >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at >> either the list's own dedicated web archive: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >> or at the public Mail Archive: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. >> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> >> >> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that >> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >> unpredictable happen. >> >> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >> visiting the list website at: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >> > > <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> > > To reply to this post, please address your message to > mac-access@mac-access.net > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at > either the list's own dedicated web archive: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> > or at the public Mail Archive: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. > Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> > > As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that > the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and > worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security > strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something > unpredictable happen. > > Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by > visiting the list website at: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> > <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> or at the public Mail Archive: <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/>
