Hi,
It is a good exapmle with Itunes, but >Itunes is a poorly designed windows
program, no shortcut keys jaws can find and no menues, other Windows
programs designed more keyboard friendly will give jaws at least the same
advantages.
Claus
I cannot see the advantage in
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricardo Walker" <rwalker...@gmail.com>
To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
Hi Neil,
Correct. If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the
physical placement of an item, you can find it on the track pad which gives
you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen. Just
like on the iPhone. This leads me into my comment. I don't think moving
your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes
you slower. For example, If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item
using JFW I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times. If I know the layout of
iTunes on a Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad. If your in
an environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people this
can really clear some communication hurdles. I thought just like you when I
first made the switch. "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the
same task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?" And it annoyed me. But then I
realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct
relationship to speed and or productivity. I also didn't like the concept
of interacting with elements. This is before I completely understood it's
advantages. Again, I use iTunes as an example. If you have your IOS device
hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to
your device. Same with the Mac. Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and tab.
Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then tab
a whole lot more. On the Mac, I could use the iTem chooser to find music
and it takes me right to it. Lets say for some reason I did want to press
VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser. Once I've reached music
and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas that
contain the information for the button I've selected. If I don't want to
view them I don't have to. You don't have this choice on windows. Your
forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know what your
looking for.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
Laura,
good post, appreciated reading it...
can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.
how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way
represents the screen?
thanks.
Twitter @neilbarnfather
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator
TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
-----Original Message-----
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M
Sent: 11 October 2010 02:50
To: MacVisionaries
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent
with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no
problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that
it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in
the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with
one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more conveniently.
I'm not using the number row to jump through headings on a website,
for example, then coming back to the arrow keys to continue reading.
I've made a couple changes in keyboard commander, and they've also
improved things, but those changes are no more extensive than anything
I did with the JAWS keyboard manager.
There are three things that really make it quicker for me: the
trackpad, the item chooser, and--pretty surprisingly, given that I
hated it at the start--the need for interaction.
With the trackpad, if I'm on a page or a program I'm familiar with, I
can instantly get to what I want by just touching it, as opposed to
tabbing or arrowing however many times it takes to get there. It does
mean taking your hand off the keyboard, yes, but the time saver is
more than worth it, imo. There are many, many times in work now, when
I'm using a Windows machine with no option but to tab and tab, that
I'm beyond frustrated not to have it. That's also why the model of
interaction helps. At the beginning, it seemed like a lot more work to
have to interact just to get to a button, but if you've got a program
with a lot of controls, skipping over them by groups, as opposed to
painstakingly going past each control until you find the one you want,
is far more efficient.
The item chooser is extremely useful for similar reasons. It's not
just present on webpages, where it gives you the JAWS functionality of
narrowing down headers or form controls or whatever; it's in every
program Voiceover works with. The more complicated the program, the
more beneficial it is.
I don't think Voiceover is perfect by any means. There's a level of
customisation possible in JAWS that isn't there yet, but if we're just
talking navigation, I think a lot of the solutions that seem backward
at first really do pay off. And I'd also add that I feel much more
like I'm using the Mac as sighted people do than I ever did with
windows. With Voiceover, I'm not forced to do everything linearly; a
friend can say, "You want the icon at the top right of the screen,"
and that's actually useful information now. There's a context to
things that the Windows screenreaders simply didn't provide me.
I also suspect there are duplicate VO keyboard commands for existing
OS shortcuts because it was probably far more useful and common to
lock the VO keys before quicknav came along. It's maybe not ideal now,
but I can see why it made sense then. I listen out for whatever
keyboard shortcuts the program menus list, and learn them, instead.
There are also good resources on the web that list the most common
keyboard shortcuts, which might help you out.
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