Michael scherer wrote:
why this kind of "competition"?
It is up to you to explain why you see competition when i just
state that we have obviously a different set of ressources.
Let's say the first feeling I had in reading... ;-)
[...]
We should summarize what there is from what there isn't in the
distro. The 2nd problems is that we seem assigning to most packagers
and maintainers some secret powers that they should have, like
knowing the package better or at the same level than upstream
developers. If not, then there are lack of resources...; maybe they
just know how to assemble and compile it...and that's all. IMHO
knowing the package at such high levels has become the exception,
not the rule. One packager/maintainer might know very very well 1 or
maybe 3,4 packages (e.g. colin for pulseaudio, buchan for samba, me
for tex and so on), but there are 10000 packages out there and there
aren't 5000 maintainers...
Well, we at least except the maintainer to know how to run the software
or how to use it. If someone package a perl module, it is either for running
a script, or for another module ( hence in all case using it ).
So of course, the maintainer do not know everything, but he has at least
basic knowledge about the software.
well, sometimes a newer library or a new module is just needed to build
another one he maintains.
1) We might move kdenlive from good main to evil contrib or remove
kdenlive from the distro? Well, a non-existing package won't crash.
And so distro would result more polished, ordered (I like ordered
and cleaned distro with no broken deps in hdlists, really) should
rock. But from point of view of an end user he don't have any video
editing application anyway. So who cares of the others packages he
won't use?
That solution was already used for koffice or kdevelop, IIRC.
And the fact is while it should be IMHO a really last resort solution,
we cannot avoid keeping it in mind.
And the issue is not only our reputation, but also the one of kdenlive, and
as a distributor, we must think of our upstream as well.
Yep, though the reputation IMHO it's not strictly tied to newer or older
package. We might have old packages which works, as well as old packages
which don't even install anymore. We might be ultraconservative, not
changing a package even under torture if not have passed some sieve,
like some well-known distro or ultramodern. Probably there is the need
to find a balance. From my experience old packages still working are
those linked to libc only and not C++, as well as not tied to many
toolboxes as deps. I might for instance found that the old quake3 demo
binary that I packaged for MDV 7.0 maybe, is still working today with
audio and 3d GL acceleration.
2) We might let people know that the backport version works. So more
communcation here.
Or add the backport to updates, as this would be a bugfix.
That suppose the channel above. But if one has to "play" or "fight" too
much, that won't happen IMHO. E.g. in the specific example the quick
step are: version in main doesn't work at all, version in backports do
(at most can't be worst), let's update, end of the story. But the real
rule would have been, ask for an update, and take the whole
responsibility for it, including writing the report, etc.; typical examples:
- post to a mailing list, e.g. on maintainers mail list: "hey, package
xxx doesn't work, package xxx in backports does, let's do the upgrade"?
- QA answer: "well, is there a bug report?"
- "hmmm, not sure, will check". Sound there isn't.
- QA: "then write one".
- "hmmm, I just found some already did, I had missed before. can we have
the upgrade now"?
- QA: "well, are you sure it won't break anything already working?"
- "well, it can't, original is already broken".
- QA: "well, but please, write a detailed report for the update, but are
you really sure it won't break anything? It will be your fault"
- at this point doubt is growing... "Hmmm, I have to write a report,
hmmm, what to put on it, hmmm...certainly I can't put a generic "old xxx
package doesn't work xxx+1 does"...hmmm let's think...well, xxx+1 works
for me, having it in backports is enough for me. Let's do this long
stuff another time..." ;-)
4) We might help to let these rules easier, lighter and quicker to
be implemented (more communcation, self or packagers helping each
others, more automatic tools)
We need to offload everything we can on automatic scripts. This was my
presentation
in 2004 at cooker meeting, and this is still true, IMHO. Youri, rpmlint, etc,
all
have served to catch errors that were discovered by random user before.
Of course, this doesn't fix them.
well, sometimes new flags introduce new errors, and fix won't happens
automatically...; I remember the one about strfmt.
5) Add a precise protocol of testing for each package. This might be
automatic or manual (or both). In case of manual, the testing
protocol steps might be performed by anyone. But shouldn't go in the
destructive spiral of more rules. Documentation should be crystal
clear, and information should be easy to catch not let users waste
days and days trying to find the right thing to do, in seeking good
documentation between tons of obsolete and bad one. Also the report
of the testing should be easy to post, not opening 27 sites, scroll
between 18000 packages, wait 10 minutes the server answers, or
sending 84 mails and wait answer from 54 different people...; In
case of kdenlive, a basic protocol test could be like this: 1)
install the package 2) Go on menu Project/Add clip and open the file
blabla.avi HERE... 3) Go on menu Monitor/Clip and click on the
button "play" 4) ... 5) rely also on the upstream protocol testing
if exists 6) report it works by a couple of clicks. This won't
require specific skill and even users who might not have ever used
this package could partecipate.
Yup. And I think we can adopt this progressively. Ie, first focus on
writing one test file, and then use it. And start with a 2nd test file, etc.
Once there is enough test file, people can organize test days.
And we could even share those procedures with others distributions.
Yep, I was using a sort of such kind of protocols, for instance for
mozplugger and mplayerplug-in. People might add also some further deeper
tests.
Bye
Giuseppe.
