Le 2010-09-22 16:04, Michael Scherer a écrit :
Le mercredi 22 septembre 2010 à 12:11 -0400, Marc Paré a écrit :
Le 2010-09-22 10:41, Michael Scherer a écrit :
Le mardi 21 septembre 2010 à 16:53 -0400, Marc Paré a écrit :
Would it make sense to also have a section for "mageia" domain owners to
track domain owners who are willing to cooperate? You will eventually
have to do this anyway. I would also consider this also a type of offer
of cooperation and help.
Personally, I think we should not collect all domain names to give them
to the association :
The offer was to pass on the domain if the Mageia project wanted to have
it. It adds flexibility
1) each domain name will need admin time. Either to manage ( ie, set up
vhost, setup the zone, add a entry to the zone etc ), or to renew. While
renewing 1 domain name every year is easy, renewing 10 or 20 on 10 to 20
different resellers, for different prices and so on will be quite
annoying.
When passing off a domain, the reseller is transferred. You then
consolidate all under on reseller. I do this all the time.
Well, depending on the domain, I am not sure that all of them can be
transferred everywhere.
For example, .ie is restricted as Colin Guthrie explained to me for the
10 years of Mandriva. And it seems that you cannot buy .ie at gandi.net,
which is the reseller we have used.
So I do not know if they can manage every type of TLD.
If you register with a larger reseller, they will have offices in most
countries to get around this. They then offer you an account that
consolidates all domains. The contact information is then coordinated
from this account.
2) this will also generate work for people in charge of comptability,
and we know that people doing the work of a CFO are a scarce ressources
( CFO may not be the proper word, but I didn't found better ).
You set a pointer to the main site and there is no need to use the other
domain names if you do not wish.
I mean administrative work, like taking care of the bill, reporting them
on the financial report, etc.
I never managed a association as a treasurer, so I do not know how much
paperwork is really required, or if this is really annoying, but all the
one that I know are always already overworked, so I am sure that less
work is better.
It is really not that much of a burden. You can coordinate the billing
periods with your reseller. They will be more than happy to help you
with this.
If we use for http :
4) too much domain will be a pain from a ssl point of view. If we start
to need ssl for a site, and there is 10 Vhost for it, we will just have
10 time the work to renew certificates.
Not applicable if you redirect the domains. You would then only have to
establish certificates for those domains that you intend to use.
I beg to differ.
For a http redirect, this will require first to connect using https then
send the redirect at http level, so a valid certificate is needed before
the redirect.
If you speak of a "dns redirect", you can either use a A record, in
which case the issue would still be valid since browser will ask for the
certificate of the first domain name, not the redirected one. Or you can
use a CNAME record, in which case, the issue is the same.
Maybe I forgot something or overlooked it however, but I am quite
confident of this. And since this will be different TLDs, you cannot use
a wildcard certificate.
Of course, a solution would be to basically use the same certificate
everywhere and let warnings appear, this is not a big issue.
Your reseller and/or hosting service would most likely help you out with
this as well.
5) too much domain will also requires more work for simple http, since
we will have lots of them.
Not applicable if you set a pointer. This will also depend on the amount
of website developers help who have signed up.
Well, it mostly depend on the number of vhost needed. For exemple, if we
want to have blog.example.fr redirect to blog.example.org, we need to
create a vhost with the redirection. Te issue can be alleviated by using
some mod_rewrite tricks.
But yes, for the case you gave of simple http redirect, this is not
tricky to handle.
But it depend on what will be needed. Worst case would be to have
conditional vhost for each domain ( like only have a blog on some
subdomain and not others ).
The hosting service I use give you unlimited redirects and domain
parking. -- 123ehost.com. It works well and quite painless. These are
set up in minutes.
6) too much different url will just mean more confusion. I may also fear
this could be seen by major search engine as unethic SEO, and thus be
punished ( since link farm is a commonly used technic to try to hijack
some keywords ). But Google, Yahoo and Bing systems are closed source,
so I do not know.
This is not unethic as all business on the internet do this as common
practice. Try to type in URL's for any major corporation, or Yahoo!,
Google, Bing etc.
Well, yahoo.fr and yahoo.com do not give the same server, and there is
some high level redirection. So does Dell ( 2 differents sites ), Apple
( not the same server, not the same page, redirection to .com with a
url ), Microsoft ( does like Apple ), Renault ( not the same ip, some
wierd redirection ), Peugeot.
Ie, among the test i did, only Google and Bind do have the same page
across various urls.
So my own understanding is that they appear to be different entities to
most search engines.
Due to the load on their services, as well as different national
conditions put on these companies (RIM and problems with their
BlackBerry servers in UAE and India etc is a good example), to them, it
makes sense to have separate servers. However, Mageia would not suffer
at the outset from such a load and if it did, you could then make
allowances for this.
If we use for mail :
7) too much domain will simply mean more spam. If we offer multiple
email ( like "[email protected], and .de, and .fr and .cn, and so on ),
email will simply appear in more list, and therefore be more spammed.
Domains do not have to be activated for mail. If a domain is not
activated for mail service then the mail bounces back to the sender.
This is done all of the time.
Well, that why I have said "if we use it for mail".
And I see at least 1 person using the domain name he bought and offered
us to use ( see Tomáš Kindl on
http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=ressources ).
This is easily set up. Mageia devs and core groups (once formally
established) are more than welcome to have a "[email protected] mail
account if they want one. I will set that up for them along with POP,
SMTP and Webmail.
9) and of course, too much domain name, like for websites will mean more
confusion.
It means less confusion. mageia.org will lead to main site; mageia.ca
does lead to main site; magiea.nl would lead to main site; mageia.net
would lead to main site; mageia.info would lead to main site ... How
would this be confusing?
I was not clear, I was speaking of mail address ( if we use them ).
And so this would bring confusion because people often rely on the mail
to see if someone is a official developer or not. Hence, if we use the
domain for mail, people will use them to post on ml, I assume people
will use them.
Of course, as you said, we can also decide to not use it.
By doing business the way that you advocate, you actually lower the
fidelity that one would assume of a serious group.
We are not creating a business, but a free software project, IIRC. So
some concepts may not be applicable directly. And I think that part of
the fidelity would be earned with local user group with their own
identity and presence, and likely their own choices, independances and
domain names.
If you are looking for foundation grants or government grants, they will
want to see a business model. They will not lend money to Mageia on
loose terms. Would you? The core group will have no choice but to adopt
a business plan if they really want the project to reach their
advertised goals. Ask any arts group that has applied for grants.
So
10) by registering every possible variation, we are acting selfishly
toward others netizens.
You have already covered these points up above with #9. #10 is not a new
point.
No, 10 is for the paragraph about "lack of good domain name on the
internet" before, based on the problem about finding a name, and about
being nice with other people who may use the name in unrelated way.
The only answer I got was about security. But seriously, security of
what ? Protecting from people doing phishing ? Bank already fail at
this, and you think we can ?
Who mentioned security? This is all about flexibility.
First time I mentioned the issue 2 days ago. But I think this was on
irc, since I cannot find anything in the mailling list archives :/
No worry there, there are already speculators who have gobbled up the
"Mageia" domain permutations that they think will stick, hoping that the
Mageia project will bring great success. This, hoping to cash out later
on. I even sent a note out to Anne on Sunday night letting her know that
the sites were being bought out at a feverish pace.
This is why I think that a further name change later on may be in the
cards if we find that the "Mageia" domain situation is untenable.
( if someone can confirm that I didn't dream... )
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