>>>>> "Stewart" == Stewart Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Stewart> <scraping sound of soapbox being pulled up> Stewart> I really, /really/ appreciate applications that build Stewart> into a single binary or a very few files, that can be Stewart> built on a (different) build and test host, then copied Stewart> over to the production when everything is thrashed out Stewart> and ripe...you know, like Pine and UoW IMAP. Mailman solves a different kind of problem from Pine and IMAP. IMAP has no user interface; Pine doesn't need to worry about screwing up anything but the user's own data if it screws up. The MLM problem is much less straightforward; it requires careful attention to security issues, both against hostile entities like crackers and spammers, and against benign but still dangerous activity (aka "fool-proofing"). In order to deal with the inherent complexity, AFAIK most MLMs are written in scripting languages like Python or Perl, and the rest (eg, smartlist, which is distributed with procmail) are very inflexible, require list manager == system administrator, and require separate CGIs, invariably written in a scripting language, to provide the web interface. Stewart> = there's prolly other things that don't come to mind Stewart> right now. Microsoft Exchange sounds like it's just what you need. It's only your money and your freedom that are at stake. ;-) Stewart> I guess I'm just hopelessly behind-the-times in not Stewart> wanting the installation fairy sprinkling files here and Stewart> there and generally making heavy local dependencies. Not at all. In fact, that's been a design goal and within the constraints imposed by dealing with an MTA and multiple user interfaces, it's been successful IMO. Compared to earlier versions of majordomo (I haven't dealt with anything but Mailman for about 4 years), Mailman has a well-defined structure which makes it easy to find the things I need, and has very few local dependencies except for Python and the MTA. On the other hand, compared to smartlist it allows me to delegate list configuration to the owners with little worry, and makes user-specific configuration possible. All the files are under one directory, except for the MTA configuration and possibly the archives. If your production system is binary-compatible with your test system, you just tar up the whole thing on the test side and untar on the production system. You may have to make any MTA changes by hand, although it's not hard to configure some MTAs (sendmail comes to mind) to use multiple alias files. Stewart> I Just Wanted A Mailing List Manager... Actually, I suspect you define Mailing List Manager in a way that doesn't apply to Mailman. What "mailing list manager" means in this context is "a set of user interfaces that allow list owners and users to configure their lists and subscriptions without requiring effort on the part of system administrators." It's about allowing delegation of responsibility without complicating your life, rather than about simplifying your life per se. If you're mostly setting up one-way announcement lists and the like, you might be more interested in CRM (customer relations management) software. If you are looking for something that just manages distribution lists and don't care about flexibility for list owners and users, smartlist might be more up your alley. Stewart> Augustine's Law #405: Stewart> Anything that isn't in a design won't break Murphy's Corollary to Augustine's Law #405: The users will nevertheless complain that the feature is broken by its very absence. So design the system that gives you exactly what you need, no more, and no less, and put it out for bid. Be it ever so humble, it won't be cheap.<wink> Stewart> Or tell me how wonderful it is............ It would help if you described what your needs are rather than complaining about aspects of Mailman that are designed-in in order to meet the needs perceived by the designers. It's quite possible that you would be better served by a different package. -- Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can "do" free software business; ask what your business can "do for" free software. ------------------------------------------------------ Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/