<x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=GENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----<BR>Van: Raymond Cormier <<A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A>><BR>Aan: <A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> <<A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A>><BR>Datum: dinsdag 2 februari 1999 16:26<BR>Onderwerp: VIRGIL: Aeneas/Traitor<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Many thanks to all of you who responded to my query.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have not been able yet to check out all the references that were pointed out to me, though I did read Heinze's <EM>Vergil's epic technique </EM>and several articles that deal with this matter, and checked out all the relevant references in Servius' <EM>Commentaries</EM> already some years ago.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>In response to Raymond Cormier's remarks:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>> I suspect there is little doubt that this tradition emphasizing the <BR>> treachery of both Aeneas and Antenor arises from the Dares and </DIV> <DIV>> Dictys tradition.<BR>> Prof. De Ceukelaire would do well to check out the probable </DIV> <DIV>> influence of Benoit de Sainte More's *Roman de Troie* upon von </DIV> <DIV>> Maerlant's version.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>I did some fairly extended research on the sources of Jacob van Maerlant's version of the fall of Troy. Maerlant's <EM>History of Troy </EM>is in fact for the moore part an adaptation of Benoit de Ste More's <EM>Roman de Troie</EM>, complemented with several insertions from the classical epics, among which the complete <EM>Aeneid</EM>. As regards the Fall of Troy, Maerlant had to make a choice between Benoit's version, in which Aeneas and Antenor betrayed Troy (and which indeed originates from Dares & Dictys), and Virgil's. He chose Virgil, but at the same time reconciled both versions in an ingenious way. Discussing this matter any further however is not relevant to this discussion group, so let's return to our sheep, as they say in French.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>The question that in fact never stopped bothering me (and which bears no relevance to Maerlant's choice), is that according to all the scholars I have read, the Aeneas-as-a-traitor tradition was not known in Rome in or before Virgil's time. In fact, the first references to it in Latin date from the fourth c. AD (TC Donatus, Servius, the anonymous Origo Gentis Romanae; maybe there are others I am not aware of). I always found this hard to believe, for two reasons: (1) the Roman authors of Virgil's time (please correct me if I'm wrong here) were very aware of the literary scene in Greece, where the tradition originated from; (2) Dinoysius of Halicarnassus, writing in Greek but living in Rome, mentions the treason in his <EM>Romanae antiquitates</EM> (I, 48, 3) - almost contemporary to the <EM>Aeneid</EM> ! How did Dionysius manage to keep it from his Roman fellow authors? Maybe I am wrong in doubting the opinion of so many scholars, but I just wanted to make sure that indeed no-one ever found evidence of the tradition being known to Virgil or any other author of his time - and which better way than to present the query to the Mantovano discussion group?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Best regards,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Gert</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>PS: R. Cormier gives me too much credit: I am not a professor and do not even hold a PhD title. But thanks anyway - I'm flattered!</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Feb 03 09:47:53 1999 Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from midway.uchicago.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [128.135.12.12]) by plaisance.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA15550; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:47:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from wilsoninet.com ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [192.41.8.139]) by midway.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id GAA23461; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:47:43 -0600 (CST) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id FAA17706; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 05:37:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 12:28:14 +0000 Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneas/Traitor From: "Dr D P Nelis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3000889694_618300_MIME_Part" Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: 27f3dae425918554e5a3220b036dcc5d <x-html><HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: VIRGIL: Aeneas/Traitor</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF"> I have a vague idea of having seen an article in a recent volume of the REVUE DES ETUDES LATINES on anti-Trojan historiography; perhaps by Dominique Briquel.<BR> Any bells anyone?<BR> Damien Nelis<BR> ----------<BR> From: "Gert De Ceukelaire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><BR> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><BR> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneas/Traitor<BR> Date: Wed, Feb 3, 1999, 10:57<BR> <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <FONT SIZE="2">-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----<BR> Van: Raymond Cormier <<FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><U>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</U></FONT> <<FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><U>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]</U></FONT>> ><BR> Aan: <FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><U>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</U></FONT> <<FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><U>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]</U></FONT>> <<FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><U>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</U></FONT> <<FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><U>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]</U></FONT>> ><BR> Datum: dinsdag 2 februari 1999 16:26<BR> Onderwerp: VIRGIL: Aeneas/Traitor<BR> </FONT> <BR> <FONT SIZE="2">Many thanks to all of you who responded to my query.<BR> </FONT> <BR> <FONT SIZE="2">I have not been able yet to check out all the references that were pointed out to me, though I did read Heinze's <I>Vergil's epic technique </I>and several articles that deal with this matter, and checked out all the relevant references in Servius' <I>Commentaries</I> already some years ago.<BR> </FONT> <BR> <FONT SIZE="2">In response to Raymond Cormier's remarks:<BR> </FONT> <BR> > I suspect there is little doubt that this tradition emphasizing the <BR> > treachery of both Aeneas and Antenor arises from the Dares and <BR> > Dictys tradition.<BR> > Prof. De Ceukelaire would do well to check out the probable <BR> > influence of Benoit de Sainte More's *Roman de Troie* upon von <BR> > Maerlant's version.<BR> <BR> <BR> <FONT SIZE="2">I did some fairly extended research on the sources of Jacob van Maerlant's version of the fall of Troy. Maerlant's <I>History of Troy </I>is in fact for the moore part an adaptation of Benoit de Ste More's <I>Roman de Troie</I>, complemented with several insertions from the classical epics, among which the complete <I>Aeneid</I>. As regards the Fall of Troy, Maerlant had to make a choice between Benoit's version, in which Aeneas and Antenor betrayed Troy (and which indeed originates from Dares & Dictys), and Virgil's. He chose Virgil, but at the same time reconciled both versions in an ingenious way. Discussing this matter any further however is not relevant to this discussion group, so let's return to our sheep, as they say in French.<BR> </FONT> <BR> <FONT SIZE="2">The question that in fact never stopped bothering me (and which bears no relevance to Maerlant's choice), is that according to all the scholars I have read, the Aeneas-as-a-traitor tradition was not known in Rome in or before Virgil's time. In fact, the first references to it in Latin date from the fourth c. AD (TC Donatus, Servius, the anonymous Origo Gentis Romanae; maybe there are others I am not aware of). I always found this hard to believe, for two reasons: (1) the Roman authors of Virgil's time (please correct me if I'm wrong here) were very aware of the literary scene in Greece, where the tradition originated from; (2) Dinoysius of Halicarnassus, writing in Greek but living in Rome, mentions the treason in his <I>Romanae antiquitates</I> (I, 48, 3) - almost contemporary to the <I>Aeneid</I> ! How did Dionysius manage to keep it from his Roman fellow authors? Maybe I am wrong in doubting the opinion of so many scholars, but I just wanted to make sure that indeed no-one ever found evidence of the tradition being known to Virgil or any other author of his time - and which better way than to present the query to the Mantovano discussion group?<BR> </FONT> <BR> <FONT SIZE="2">Best regards,<BR> </FONT> <BR> <FONT SIZE="2">Gert<BR> </FONT> <BR> <FONT SIZE="2">PS: R. Cormier gives me too much credit: I am not a professor and do not even hold a PhD title. But thanks anyway - I'm flattered!<BR> </FONT><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE> </BODY> </HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Feb 03 09:47:57 1999 Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from midway.uchicago.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [128.135.12.12]) by plaisance.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA17006; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:56:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from wilsoninet.com ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [192.41.8.139]) by midway.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id GAA25416; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:56:22 -0600 (CST) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id FAA17998; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 05:38:56 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 07:36:29 -0500 From: Diane Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneas/Traitor References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5404059F7519092D80153386" Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: e71b21db11d7e4b047a44282a39abf04 <x-html><HTML> Professor Cormier, I have followed the dating in R. M. Frazer, Jr.'s edition, The Trojan War: The chronicles of Dictys of Crete and Dares the Phrygian, 1966. He says that both Dictys and Dares were originally written in Greek during the first or second century AD. I would greatly appreciate sources for the later dating of them. Thank you very much for your time. Diane Thompson <P>Raymond Cormier wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> In response to Gert De Ceukelaire <BR>query in re: Jacob von Maerlant's <BR>Middle Dutch *Aeneid* -- <BR> I suspect there is little doubt <BR>that this tradition emphasizing the <BR>treachery of both Aeneas and Antenor <BR>arises from the Dares and Dictys tradition. <BR> To Dares the Phyrgian is assigned <BR>the prose *De excidio Troiae historia* <BR>(5th-6th c. A.D.?), and to Dictys of Crete <BR>2nd-3rd c.?) the *Ephemeris belli Troiani*. <BR> Each of these pretends to be eye- <BR>winess accounts, with greater claims to <BR>authenticity over Homer, thus explaining <BR>(if only in part) their enormous popularity <BR>with medieval Troy-saga authors. <BR> Prof. De Ceukelaire would do well <BR>to check out the probable influence of Benoit <BR>de Sainte More's *Roman de Troie* upon <BR>von Maerlant's version. <BR> ...Of which important text I certainly <BR>hope he will be providing modern scholars <BR>with a new annotated edition and facing <BR>translation in the near future! <BR> R.C. <BR>********** <BR>Dr. Raymond J. Cormier Raymond CORMIER <BR><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Visiting Professor of French <BR>Dept. of English, Philosophy Longwood College <BR> and Modern Languages Farmville, VA 23909 USA <BR>(O) Tel. 804/395-2857 (p.m.) FAX 804/395-2145 <P>HOME: Longwood House Historic Farmville, VA 23901 USA <BR>1403 Johnston Drive (H) Tel. 804/392-7374 (a.m.) <BR> FAX 804/395-2008 <P>Senior Seminar-1998-"La Genèse du Roman" <BR>Programme: <BR><A HREF="http://web.lwc.edu/academic/LAS/English/HTPlanG�n�rale.html";>http://web.lwc.edu/academic/LAS/English/HTPlanGénérale.html</A> <BR>Bibliographie: <BR><A HREF="http://web.lwc.edu/academic/LAS/English/HTBibliog-Cours.html";>http://web.lwc.edu/academic/LAS/English/HTBibliog-Cours.html</A> <P>----------------------------------------------------------------------- <BR>To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. <BR>Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message <BR>"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You <BR>can also unsubscribe at <A HREF="http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub";>http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub</A></BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Feb 03 13:54:19 1999 Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from midway.uchicago.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [128.135.12.12]) by plaisance.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01501; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:40:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from wilsoninet.com ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [192.41.8.139]) by midway.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA13338; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:40:36 -0600 (CST) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA23915; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:32:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-Warning: wilsoninet.com: Host [198.111.46.179] claimed to be MACOMB.CC.MI.US Date: Wed, 3 Feb 99 13:02:29 EDT To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: "FARROW" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneas/Traitor In-Reply-To: The letter of Wednesday, 3 February 1999 11:33am ET Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: 33e3fea7d84fa4dfc64ba77dd0c16540 A subscriber has just asked about evidence for "Later dating of Dares and Dictys." Frazer's "Trojan War" gives a good introduction to & translation of Dictys, but is somewhat shaky for Dares, about whom he's terribly out of date, getting most of his info & arguments from a 1908 dissertation, "Dares-Studien" by Otmar Schissel von Fleschenberg. A lot has been done on Dares since, especially in Germany. The one name I can remember off the top of my head is Willy Schetter, but there are others too writing in the early 1990's. As for Dictys, a second papyrus fragment was found at Oxyrhynchus some time ago & was identified as being from Dictys' "Ephemeris" Book IV. The actual identification was made by Stephanie West when she was a student in J.W.B. Barnes' papyrology class at Oxford. It was published in 1966, I think, the same year that Frazer's book was published in Indiana. The fragment is probably from the very early 3rd century BC. If we allow plenty of time for archetypes to circulate, for this Oxy. fragment and for the Tebtunis fragment (also from book IV) known since the turn of the century, Dictys' Ephemeris must have already been written and put into circulation by the mid-2nd cent. AD at latest. In my thesis on Dictys & the Cypria (Oxford 1978) I argued that Dictys was probably forged during or close to the 90's AD, a generation or so after the purported "discovery" date in Nero's time & close to such other literary fantasies as Ptolemy Chennos' "Kaine Historia" and the "Wonders beyond Thule" by Antonius Diogenes. As for Dares, the problems are more complex. The atrocious Latin text as we have it now is from anywhere between the 4th and 7th century AD, but it may be a poor epitome of an earlier and better translation. I'm still working on the problem, and have been since the 1970's when I was an undergraduate. Good luck! Jim Farrow Macomb College & Wayne State U. Michigan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
