PLEASE stop sending - have twice signed off, have had confirmation of sign-off
On Tue, 28 Sep 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > VIRGIL Digest Tuesday, 28 September 1999 Volume 01 : Number 061 > > Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > Re: VIRGIL: Re:casali reference? > Re: VIRGIL: Re:casali reference? > Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > Re: VIRGIL Digest V1 #60 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jess Paehlke) > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:22:41 -0400 > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > > Dr. Conrad, > > I'd be very interested to hear more about what Vergil of Salzburg said re: > the antipodes and Boniface's concerns. Could you recommend any references > about this? > > Thanks in advance, > > Jess Paehlke > M.A. candidate > Centre for Medieval Studies > University of Toronto > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:21:02 +0200 > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > > Jess Paehlke schrieb: > > Dr. Conrad, > > > > I'd be very interested to hear more about what Vergil of Salzburg said re: > > the antipodes and Boniface's concerns. Could you recommend any references > > about this? > > see: > http://www.fortunecity.de/lindenpark/schwitters/149/globushinweise.html > > (Dr. Krüger in Berlin with his habilitation-dissertation about globus-form of > earth in medieval time and about the antipodes-argument). > > grusz, hansz > http://home.t-online.de/home/03581413454/links.htm > > > ------------------------------ > > From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:51:26 +0100 (BST) > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Re:casali reference? > > The reference - sorry, I should have given it! - is Sergio Casali 'Facta > Impia', Classical Quaterly New Series 49, 1999, pp. 203-11. - Martin > Hughes > > On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Christine Perkell wrote: > > > Hello Everyone > > > > I seem to have missed the Casali reference to which M. Hughes gave a most > > interesting response. I would thank someone of you for giving it out > > again. > > > > C. Perkell > > > > Christine Perkell/ Zarbin > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Classics Department > > Emory University > > Atlanta, GA 30322 > > 404 727 7592; fax 404 727 0223 > > In NJ: 973 635 6604 > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: Christine Perkell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 99 12:04:51 -0400 > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Re:casali reference? > > >Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Re:casali reference? > >Sent: 10/2/19 1:11 PM > >Received: 9/28/99 11:56 AM > >From: M W Hughes, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >The reference - sorry, I should have given it! - is Sergio Casali 'Facta > >Impia', Classical Quaterly New Series 49, 1999, pp. 203-11. - Martin > >Hughes > Thank you! > > C. Perkell > > Christine Perkell/ Zarbin > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Classics Department > Emory University > Atlanta, GA 30322 > 404 727 7592; fax 404 727 0223 > In NJ: 973 635 6604 > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 14:53:26 -0500 > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > > << message forwarded by list owner follows >> > > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 14:12:31 -0500 > From: "Jeremy Downes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > In the States, at least, many classical names were imposed on > enslaved Africans (as with Caesar in Aphra Behn's Oroonoko). To great > extent, this helps explain the occasional Virgil, Aeneas, and > Marcellus in my classroom. Such usage may also explain some of the > American cultural associations--both negative and agrarian. The name > "Homer" may be a different case. > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: george t golish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:49:10 -0700 > Subject: Re: VIRGIL Digest V1 #60 > > On Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:57:39 -0700 (PDT) [EMAIL PROTECTED] > writes: > > > >VIRGIL Digest Monday, 27 September 1999 Volume 01 : > >Number 060 > > > >Re:casali reference? > >Re: VIRGIL Digest V1 #59 > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >From: Christine Perkell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 12:06:13 -0400 > >Subject: Re:casali reference? > > > >Hello Everyone > > > >I seem to have missed the Casali reference to which M. Hughes gave a > >most > >interesting response. I would thank someone of you for giving it out > >again. > > > >C. Perkell > > > >Christine Perkell/ Zarbin > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Classics Department > >Emory University > >Atlanta, GA 30322 > >404 727 7592; fax 404 727 0223 > >In NJ: 973 635 6604 > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >From: Barry Baldwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:55:07 -0600 (MDT) > >Subject: Re: VIRGIL Digest V1 #59 > > > >I have TWICE signed off all these Virgil-mantovano things, and have > >had > >confirmation of same, so why am I still getting them? -Barry Baldwin > > > >On Sun, 26 Sep 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > >>=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> VIRGIL Digest Sunday, 26 September 1999 Volume 01 : > >Number= > > 059 > >>=20 > >> Re: VIRGIL: Another Virgilius Maro? > >> Re: VIRGIL: Another Virgilius Maro? > >> Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > >> Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > >> Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > >> Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > >> Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > >> Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > >> Thank you message from API > >> Casali on Treason > >>=20 > >> > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>=20 > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) > >> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:05:40 +0200 > >> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Another Virgilius Maro? > >>=20 > >> James Butrica schrieb: > >> > ><< Message forwarded by moderator follows. >> > >> > > > >> > >From: "F. Heberlein" > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > >Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 09:08:46 +1 > >> > > > >> > >> Does someone know about a philosopher or grammarian > >> > >> called =AB Virgilius Maro =BB who was living in the 7th > >> > >> century? I would like to read something about this > >> > >> author, his life, his works. > >> > >> > >> > >This is Vergilius Maro Grammaticus, famous for his claim to have > >> > >attended in his youth a 13 days dispute on the correct vocative > >of "e= > >go" > >> > >(now and then i ask our undergrads the 'correct' solution, and > >more > >> > >than often i get replies like "o ege" ...). > >> > > > >> > > >> > Under what circumstances would one use a vocative form of the > >1st-perso= > >n > >> > singular pronoun? And please don't keep us in suspense: which form > >did = > >VMG > >> > regard as "correct," and which were the competing forms? > >>=20 > >> yes, funny indeed, but let's remember the Greek neighbour form:=20 > >> Odysseias e (book 5), 299: "=F4 moi eg=F4 deilos ..."=20 > >>=20 > >> grusz, hansz > >> http://home.t-online.de/home/03581413454/sprachen.htm > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------ > >>=20 > >> From: Greg Farnum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:01:03 -0400 > >> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Another Virgilius Maro? > >>=20 > >> I must apologize to Peter from Perth, he DID NOT claim that Virgil > >Thomps= > >on > >> was the first. I plead a hasty and furtive reading at work as my > >extenua= > >ting > >> circumstance. Still, the discussion is an interesting one; and yes, > >the = > >name > >> Homer, when pinned on an American, is just as hayseed as Virgil. > >>=20 > >> Greg Farnum > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> Jim O'Hara wrote: > >>=20 > >> > ..... and its American use as a > >> > >first name is exemplified by (5) the composer Virgil Thomson, and > >(7) = > >a > >> > >television character in "McHale's Navy". Are there any others, I > >wonde= > >r? > >> > > > >> > >Best wishes > >> > >Peter JVD BRYANT > >> > >Perth > >> > >Western Australia > >> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > > >> > Nine major-league baseball players, eight born 1894-1917, and one > >in th= > >e > >> > 20's, have been named Virgil: > >> > >From http://www.totalbaseball.com/ > >> > Virgil Abernathy > >> > Virgil Barnes > >> > Virgil Cheeves > >> > Virgil Davis > >> > Virgil Garriott > >> > Virgil Garvin > >> > Virgil Jester > >> > Thomas Virgil "Red" Stallcup > >> > Virgil Trucks > >> > > >> > Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara > >> > Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. > >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University > >> > 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 > >> > Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html > >> > > >> > > >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > >> > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > >> > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation > >marks). You > >> > can also unsubscribe at > >http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------ > >>=20 > >> From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:09:31 +0100 > >> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > >>=20 > >> In message > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> edu>, RANDI C ELDEVIK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >> >Yes, I have to acknowledge that those hillbilly associations do > >exist, i= > >n > >> >the U.S. context; the same for the name Homer, unfortunately. But > >I don= > >'t > >> >know how that came about, and I wish I knew. Homer and Virgil are > >my tw= > >o > >> >favorite poets, but if I had wanted to name my son in honor of one > >or bo= > >th > >> >of them, my husband would have rebelled--understandably, given the > >U.S. > >> >ambience. > >> > What's the British attitude? Doesn't anyone there give the > >name > >> >Homer or Virgil to their son? After all, one meets Englishmen > >named > >> >Terence, etc. > >>=20 > >> Can't say I've ever come across or heard of a British 'Homer' or > >> 'Virgil', high, low, or middle class. > >>=20 > >> Leofranc Holford-Strevens > >> > >*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > >> =20 > >> Leofranc Holford-Strevens > >> 67 St Bernard's Road usque > >adeone > >> Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat > >alter? > >> OX2 6EJ > >>=20 > >> tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 > >51223= > >7 > >> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >(work) > >>=20 > >> > >*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------ > >>=20 > >> From: Caroline Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 23:40:56 +0100 > >> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > >>=20 > >> I knew a cat called Virgil once, but I don't suppose that counts. > >>=20 > >> Caroline Butler > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------ > >>=20 > >> From: Caroline Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 23:40:56 +0100 > >> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > >>=20 > >> I knew a cat called Virgil once, but I don't suppose that counts. > >>=20 > >> Caroline Butler > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------ > >>=20 > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Simon Cauchi) > >> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:36:38 +1200 > >> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > >>=20 > >> > What's the British attitude? Doesn't anyone there give the > >name > >> >Homer or Virgil to their son? After all, one meets Englishmen > >named > >> >Terence, etc. > >>=20 > >> To someone like me brought up in the UK, Homer and Virgil used as > >forenam= > >es > >> sound distinctly American -- I didn't know they had a hillbilly > >ring. In > >> England I don't think Terence is taken to allude to the Roman > >playwright. > >> Nor Horace to the poet. I've never heard of anyone called Plautus or > >> Catullus. I'm sure I've heard or read of a dog called Virgil (or > >perhaps = > >it > >> was Vergil) but I can't remember where. In Malta there was (is?) a > >fashio= > >n > >> for Greek names, e.g. Sir Themistocles Zammit. > >>=20 > >> Back to work! (I'm editing a book on a field of study I didn't even > >know > >> existed -- the constitutional law of revolutions. Cases cited come > >from > >> Restoration England, the secessionist South, UDI Rhodesia, Grenada, > >Fiji, > >> Queensland, etc., but so far nothing from ancient Rome, unless you > >count = > >a > >> quotation from De Civ. Dei, IV, 4.) > >>=20 > >> Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------ > >>=20 > >> From: "Miryam y C=E9sar Libr=E1n Moreno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:21:08 +0200 > >> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > >>=20 > >> I can=B4t comment on any English usage, but here in Spain Virgilio > >(obvio= > >usly, > >> Vergil) has been consistently used as a Christian name, with no > >implicati= > >ons > >> whatsoever. Homer has never, to my knowledge, been used. Now the > >situatio= > >n in > >> South America is very different... you have the *lot *of Roman/Greek > >name= > >s, > >> which apparently carry no special connotations. > >>=20 > >> Regards, Miryam > >>=20 > >> > > What's the British attitude? Doesn't anyone there give the > >name > >> > >Homer or Virgil to their son? After all, one meets Englishmen > >named > >> > >Terence, etc. > >> > > >> > To someone like me brought up in the UK, Homer and Virgil used as > >foren= > >ames > >> > sound distinctly American -- I didn't know they had a hillbilly > >ring. I= > >n > >> > England I don't think Terence is taken to allude to the Roman > >playwrigh= > >t. > >> > Nor Horace to the poet. I've never heard of anyone called Plautus > >or > >> > Catullus. I'm sure I've heard or read of a dog called Virgil (or > >perhap= > >s it > >> > was Vergil) but I can't remember where. In Malta there was (is?) a > >fash= > >ion > >> > for Greek names, e.g. Sir Themistocles Zammit. > >> > > >> > Back to work! (I'm editing a book on a field of study I didn't > >even kno= > >w > >> > existed -- the constitutional law of revolutions. Cases cited come > >from > >> > Restoration England, the secessionist South, UDI Rhodesia, > >Grenada, Fij= > >i, > >> > Queensland, etc., but so far nothing from ancient Rome, unless you > >coun= > >t a > >> > quotation from De Civ. Dei, IV, 4.) > >> > > >> > Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand > >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > > >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > >> > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > >> > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation > >marks). You > >> > can also unsubscribe at > >http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > >>=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> - -- > >> > >*************************************************************************= > >** > >> ...There was Delphinus Polyglott. He told us what had become of the > >> eighty-three lost tragedies of Aeschylus; of the fifty-four orations > >of I= > >saeus; > >> of the three hundred and ninety-one speeches of Lysias; of the > >hundred an= > >d > >> eighty treatises of Theophrastus; of the eighth book of the conic > >section= > >s of > >> Apollonius; of Pindar=B4s hymns and dithyrambics; and of the five > >and for= > >ty > >> tragedies of Homer Junior. > >> E.A. Poe > >> > >*************************************************************************= > >** > >>=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------ > >>=20 > >> From: RANDI C ELDEVIK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:12:29 -0500 (CDT) > >> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > >>=20 > >> It just occurred to me--there was that eminent medievalist > >(American) > >> named Charles Homer Haskins. Somehow "Homer" as a middle name in > >between > >> "Charles" and "Haskins" doesn't sound quite so bad. "Homer Haskins" > >_tou= > >t > >> court_ would have a hillbilly ring to it. I still wish I knew why, > >> though. > >> Randi Eldevik > >> Oklahoma State University > >>=20 > >> On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Miryam y [UNKNOWN] C=3DE9sar Libr=3DE1n Moreno > >wrote= > >: > >>=20 > >> > I can=3DB4t comment on any English usage, but here in Spain > >Virgilio (o= > >bvio=3D > >> usly, > >> > Vergil) has been consistently used as a Christian name, with no > >implica= > >ti=3D > >> ons > >> > whatsoever. Homer has never, to my knowledge, been used. Now the > >situat= > >io=3D > >> n in > >> > South America is very different... you have the *lot *of > >Roman/Greek na= > >me=3D > >> s, > >> > which apparently carry no special connotations. > >> >=3D20 > >> > Regards, Miryam > >> >=3D20 > >> > > > What's the British attitude? Doesn't anyone there give > >the nam= > >e > >> > > >Homer or Virgil to their son? After all, one meets Englishmen > >named > >> > > >Terence, etc. > >> > > > >> > > To someone like me brought up in the UK, Homer and Virgil used > >as for= > >en=3D > >> ames > >> > > sound distinctly American -- I didn't know they had a hillbilly > >ring.= > > I=3D > >> n > >> > > England I don't think Terence is taken to allude to the Roman > >playwri= > >gh=3D > >> t. > >> > > Nor Horace to the poet. I've never heard of anyone called > >Plautus or > >> > > Catullus. I'm sure I've heard or read of a dog called Virgil (or > >perh= > >ap=3D > >> s it > >> > > was Vergil) but I can't remember where. In Malta there was (is?) > >a fa= > >sh=3D > >> ion > >> > > for Greek names, e.g. Sir Themistocles Zammit. > >> > > > >> > > Back to work! (I'm editing a book on a field of study I didn't > >even k= > >no=3D > >> w > >> > > existed -- the constitutional law of revolutions. Cases cited > >come fr= > >om > >> > > Restoration England, the secessionist South, UDI Rhodesia, > >Grenada, F= > >ij=3D > >> i, > >> > > Queensland, etc., but so far nothing from ancient Rome, unless > >you co= > >un=3D > >> t a > >> > > quotation from De Civ. Dei, IV, 4.) > >> > > > >> > > Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand > >> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > > > >> > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------= > >- -- > >> > > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit > >reply. > >> > > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > >> > > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation > >marks). Y= > >ou > >> > > can also unsubscribe at > >http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#uns= > >ub > >> >=3D20 > >> >=3D20 > >> >=3D20 > >> > -- > >> > > >***********************************************************************= > >**=3D > >> ** > >> > ...There was Delphinus Polyglott. He told us what had become of > >the > >> > eighty-three lost tragedies of Aeschylus; of the fifty-four > >orations of= > > I=3D > >> saeus; > >> > of the three hundred and ninety-one speeches of Lysias; of the > >hundred = > >an=3D > >> d > >> > eighty treatises of Theophrastus; of the eighth book of the conic > >secti= > >on=3D > >> s of > >> > Apollonius; of Pindar=3DB4s hymns and dithyrambics; and of the > >five and= > > for=3D > >> ty > >> > tragedies of Homer Junior. > >> > E.A. Poe > >> > > >***********************************************************************= > >**=3D > >> ** > >> >=3D20 > >> >=3D20 > >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > >> > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > >> > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation > >marks). You > >> > can also unsubscribe at > >http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > >> >=3D20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------ > >>=20 > >> From: "=3D?iso-8859-1?q?A.P.H.=3D20Itel?=3D" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:19:48 +0100 (BST) > >> Subject: Thank you message from API > >>=20 > >> Many thanks to all of you who replied to my question > >> about the other Virgil.I am sorry to be late to do > >> that. > >>=20 > >> Virgilius (Virgile in French) as a name, is nowaday > >> quite unusual and meeting people who were given it is > >> somehow rare. I think it began to be used as a first > >> name in France during the Renaissance period. As for > >> latin names,I personally know two Virgile, one > >> Terence, three Martial (and even one Agricola !). I > >> think the first name Virgile is still quite common in > >> the former French colonies of Africa and in French > >> territory like Martinique, Guadeloupe and Guyana.=20 > >>=20 > >> The quotation of the Eglogues I, below my name, is > >> indeed a very nice one.=20 > >> Recently I made an exhibition of some of my > >> calligraphy works here in Tokyo. Most of the works > >> were in English, some in Italian, and only two in > >> Latin : one was the poem of Quintus Horatius Flaccus, > >> =AB TU NE QUAESIERIS=85 =BB (Carminum Liber I, XI), and the > >> other the quotation of Eglogues I (79-83).=20 > >>=20 > >> I choose to write and enluminate this quotation for > >> the reason that, may be, it is a good example of what > >> is =AB AMOR =BB in Virgil. > >> In the Eneid, Anchises is welcoming is son in the > >> Elysium by these words =AB VICIT ITER DURUM PIETAS =BB. > >> And =AB Pietas =BB seems to be a consequence of Aeneas > >> travel down to visit his father. I admire very much > >> the roman =AB PIETAS =BB, of course, like, for example, > >> the one that felt Aeneas when he met with Dido in the > >> Campi Lugentes. But PIETAS seems to me a quite > >> difficult word=85 > >> There is also the law of Juppiter, in the Georgics, > >> poem of the arduous =AB culture =BB of the earth : =AB LABOR > >> OMNIA VINCIT =BB. As I am living in Japan, I may have a > >> good idea of what means =AB LABOR =BB ! I would not say I > >> like this word too much=85 > >> And then,there is the =AB OMNIA VINCIT AMOR =BB of the > >> Eglogues. Of course, I am not Meliboeus, but I can=92t > >> refrain from time to time, living so far from my > >> country, to repeat to myself the verses 64, 65, 66 : > >> =AB AT NOS HINC ALII SITIENTES IBIMUS AFROS,=20 > >> PARS SCYTHIAM ET RAPIDUM CRETAE VENIEMUS OAXEN > >> ET PENITUS TOTO DIVISOS ORBE BRITANNOS =BB. > >> For the exhibition, I could not possibly have written > >> those three one ! The Reply of Tityrus was more > >> appropriate. > >>=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> N.B. : I have, of course, nothing against Japanese > >> people. > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> Andre-Paul Itel > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Hic tamen hanc mecum potera requiescere noctem > >> Fronde super viridi. Super nobis mitia poma, > >> Castaneae molles et pressi copia lactis; > >> Et jam summa procul villarum culmina fumant, > >> Majoresque cadunt altis de montibus umbrae. > >> ____________________________________________________________ > >> Do You Yahoo!? > >> Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk > >> or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------ > >>=20 > >> From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 21:25:22 +0100 (BST) > >> Subject: Casali on Treason > >>=20 > >> A few comments (too many!) on Casali's highly impressive article on > >> Aeneas' treason to which LHS referred us. =20 > >>=20 > >> The idea that Dido attributes 'facta impia' to Aeneas, not herself, > >seems > >> to have strong support in Italy - Paratore supports it in his > >edition and > >> names other scholars on both sides. In Britain, there seems to have > >been > >> a long-running consensus against this idea. Austin is distinctly > >scornful > >> about it and so was Pease in an earlier genertion. The self-blaming > >woman > >> seems (suspiciously!) more congenial to us than the woman who is > >> subversive enough to question the male hero's account of his > >glorious > >> past. > >>=20 > >> I am not wholly convinced by Casali and would prefer an open > >translation > >> of IV 596 'Infelix Dido, nunc te facta impia tangunt! Tum decuit, > >cum > >> sceptra dabas' - 'Does it only now strike you, poor Dido, what evil > >has > >> been done? You should have thought of that when you were so ready to > >shar= > >e > >> power.' She may be thinking of herself as well as of Aeneas and she > >may > >> not be thinking only of hostile stories about Aeneas. Perhaps even > >his > >> own account of himself no longer strikes her as so impressive. > >>=20 > >> Casali is surely right to say that the Temple scene in Book I is > >meant t= > >o > >> remind us that works of art can be interpreted in different ways. > >But I > >> would take view of the parallel between 'facta impia tangunt' of IV > >596 > >> and the more famous 'mentem mortalia tangunt' of I 462 rather > >different > >> from Casali's. The idea of 'impact on the mind', found in both > >scenes, is > >> surely not a matter of knowing that certain things have happened but > >of > >> being properly impressed and moved by their happening. Aeneas in > >Book I > >> does not so much note that the Tyrians know about Troy but that > >their > >> reaction is (he thinks) movingly humane. He likes the ideology which > >he > >> finds. This must be Dido's version of the ideology taught by Juno. > >So > >> Venus remarks (I, 671) that she thinks with utter dread of the turn > >that > >> this Juno-style welcome may take. > >>=20 > >> Juno, I suppose, stands for the Greek system of autonomous cities, > >held > >> together by common religion and morality. The morality would > >include > >> faithful marriage and personal restraint. One of the safety-valves > >> of the Greek system was the foundation of colonies which would be > >outside > >> the influence of the parent city Dido and therefore, if its people > >are > >> tolerant, a sanctuary for all refugees of good character, regardless > >of > >> racial background. Dido is a colony-founder and is ready to accept > >other > >> refugees 'without discrimination'(574). This readiness reflects her > >> personal generosity of spirit. But there's an element of political > >> liberalism as well - Junoism at its best. For her part, Venus has > >always > >> wished to replace the system of autonomous cities with a system > >founded o= > >n > >> the special status of her favoured city, Troy/Rome. > >>=20 > >> >From IV 321 one suspects that Dido, like some other liberals, can't > >quit= > >e > >> get the mass of her people to cooperate with her project. The > >Tyrians an= > >d > >> Trojans have not got on well. We know that the Tyrians always had > >> 'ferocia corda' towards foreigners (I 302) - Junoism taking a > >xenophobic > >> form among people who are not so enlightened. > >>=20 > >> It is interesting to ask why Aeneas does not find, in the Temple of > >Juno, > >> tableaux which were unambiguously hostile to Troy or to himself - > >'the > >> Trojans cower behind their walls; Aeneas takes a bribe to hand over > >the > >> keys'. It seems dramatically likely that the Greeks, thrown into > >chaos b= > >y > >> the death of Agamemnon and unable to organise pursuit of Aeneas, > >would > >> still spread disinformation. Sinon's memoirs must have spun a > >remarkable > >> yarn. Perhaps Dido can recognise dodgy propaganda when she sees or > >hears > >> it. No doubt she has been on the receiving end herself; Pygmalion > >would > >> have had a lot of explaining to do when she made off with the gold > >> reserves from Tyre and would have spread disinformation of his own. > >>=20 > >> If 'the impact on the mind' in Book I led to ideological sympathy I > >> would think that 'the impact on the mind' in Book IV leads to > >ideological > >> hostility. In Book I Aeneas thinks that events are interpreted with > >> compassion, as he would wish; in Book IV Dido comes to interpret > >events > >> with exactly the hostility which he would wish to avoid. The race > >of > >> Laomedon, she has already perceived, is pervasively treacherous > >(542). > >> Why is that? Surely because it is 'Venusian' - it believes that its > >> special relationship with the gods gives it a special right to > >power, > >> beside which all other rights fade away. If you throw it out of one > >> place, it will flee to another, not just to found a Greek-style > >colony bu= > >t > >> to renew, from another fortress, its efforts at world power. She is > >the > >> latest victim of this process, which will just go on and on unless > >her > >> avenging heir can put a stop to it. > >>=20 > >> Perhaps she underestimates Aeneas' love for her but she is right to > >think > >> herself the victim of a conspiracy, organised in fact by Venus, the > >> huntress of Book I, who has long marked Dido as her target. This is > >a > >> very deep ideological and religious enmnity.=20 > >>=20 > >> Dido, seeing herself in a trap, may well understand that she never > >had to > >> accept Aeneas' account of 'the facts of Troy': there were other > >accounts > >> of the same facts, as Casali reminds us. Moreover, Aeneas' account > >was a > >> poem and poets are famous for not always telling the truth. But I > >think > >> that Casali would have been truer to his own insight about the > >different > >> interpretations of works of art had he made Dido reinterpret Aeneas' > >poem= > >, > >> that is see a different meaning in it without challenging its > >'facts'. > >> Dido now perceives the preservation of Troy and its religious icons > >as a > >> sinister threat to the whole civilised world.=20 > >>=20 > >> I certainly don't want to return to the 'British View' of Dido as > >> attributing facta impia only to herself. But I don't think we > >should lay= > >=20 > >> to much emphasis on 'the facts of Troy' so much as on 'the meaning > >of > >> Troy'. I think Dido sees herself as entangled in, contributing to > >and > >> destroyed by a plot to perpetuate the evil religion of the Trojans. > >- > >> Martin Hughes > >>=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------ > >>=20 > >> End of VIRGIL Digest V1 #59 > >> *************************** > >>=20 > >> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > >> Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > >> "unsubscribe mantovano-digest" in the body (omitting the quotation > >> marks). Or go to http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > >>=20 > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >End of VIRGIL Digest V1 #60 > >*************************** > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > >"unsubscribe mantovano-digest" in the body (omitting the quotation > >marks). Or go to http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ------------------------------ > > End of VIRGIL Digest V1 #61 > *************************** > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano-digest" in the body (omitting the quotation > marks). Or go to http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). 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