Rob in reply to John..
> G'day John,
>
> Maybe my memory plays me false, but I thought so vast a majority of the
> combined Irish population wanted an end to the killing that any notion of a
> genuinely socialist armed struggle in the here and now is untenable.
Well, who would not oppose and end to the killing! But to compare this to that this
leadership is dedicated to a genuine struggle towards socialism is fairly mind
boggling. And in fact in regards to the killing only has for a short time perhaps
reduced it. And even if successful with this operation which I doubt they only manage
to point the guns in another direction in the future instead of at the ruling class!
> The world's a small place these days, and I reckon popular socialist
> sentiment in a country as miniscule as Ireland (and as close to Britain)
> ain't a likely scenario absent evidence of such in core countries.
Well what is going on in Ireland has more to do with its entry into the common market
which for Ireland was in fact a positive thing in raising the welfare of the entire
nation over the short term --but hardly the long term. But this hardly makes the turn
of the leadership any better. They just want to become joint partners in the
operation. but in the final analysis there ain't no room for Ireland to prosper under
peaceful bourgeois democratic forms. In fact not for England, Germany, Japan or
anywhere else.
Because if we are there then we have reached what kautsky called super imperialism and
then well all of us have been wrong. so the debate about Ireland must be seen in the
big picture and not a maneuvering place for leftists who feel comfortable in HOPING
this will be the way things go so that we don't have to get out on the barricade.
Although in Ireland there has been and industrial upswing and growth in employment
this has come at the expense of down sizing and unemployment in other imperialist
countries.
Naturally providing a platform for all sort of opportunists to maneuver. however I
doubt that this will help in the long run. rob, who at times shares my views on this
must come to grips with exactly where we are and where we are heading before jumping
on this train which I believe will be very short lived.
>
> It takes more than hearty rhetoric and isolated moments of resolve in the
> periphery to convince people there's a fight there for the winning, I
> reckon. Mebbe there's a seed of collective consciousness to be had in a
> popular defence of workers' rights in ever more neo-liberal Ireland.
> That's where I reckon the trenches are just now, anyway.
This must be taken in the context of what is really going on. To say that the last ten
years of capitalist counter revolution is leading towards a globalization at super
imperialist pipedream I believe quite wrong. in fact bourgeois democracy can not solve
the present crisis and we are heading towards WW3 which will certainly create its own
mass movement potential. The point is where this movement will be lead too. Will we
see a reprisal of the betrayals of the second International. The ex far left now
trying to jump into the shoes of traditional Social democracy or will we see the
development of new Zimmerwalds?
Then again if Australia and new Zealand joined and Asian common market they might get
some room to provide and Irish leadership which we are witnessing at present. Seems
like genuine socialist struggle is pretty far fetched even under your criteria fir
these countries these days. Ow! Does my bite hurt?
Think if we had the republicans in Ireland leading the struggle of the Australian
wharfies. But that is impossible because the peace deal is connected to a growth in
the Irish economy connected to its entry into the common market. But this is only
short term. The future I doubt is not so bright and this includes the "peace"
aspirations that came to the surface in connection to this.
>
> A successful Dunkirk ain't quite an El Alamein, but it was a prerequisite, no?
Actually quite fitting! But sooner or later the guns come out and the point is where
leftists claiming to lead the masses tell them to point them. The "peaceful" times in
between being the staging ground for all of this. We certainly do not need a new 2nd
or 3rd international and once again making the same mistakes which led to defeat after
defeat. But the left appears not to understand that this is where they are heading.
Trying to find something good in the pathetic turn of the Irish leadership which was
already bad before their historical turn to make the deal and trying to find some
light in all of this certainly must be at best incredibly naive coming from leftists
who are as well read as this crew.
But please give us some proof! What exactly is going on in Ireland or anywhere else
that one can possibly claim anything bright about. All this talk about the
aspirations" of people wanting "peace" ain't enough just after we saw the latest
expression of what imperialist mean by peace in Yugoslavia and this is only the
beginning of a new spiral of inter-imperialist rivalry leading towards even perhaps a
bigger blood bath then the previous to WW's. Or even nuclear extinction.
I wanna see some arguments that justify your little Ireland optimism in the context of
what is actually taking place. Perhaps the IRA will give up its little armory. But in
the context of Germany and Japan rearming and with the Germans once again occupying
foreign soil with their armies this seems to me very small coming as and argument on
this list.
So let's here it comrade. What is it that gives you the idea that what is going on in
Ireland or England has anything to do with mass socialist struggle under the present
leadership of Blair or the republicans. in fact they are comrades in arms to dupe
people and have turned their backs on foremost the working class in order to pull off
this operation.
Finally.. I am back from a long vacation. And my bite is fairly sharp. Put on your
armour! Clear out your heads because Bob is not going to let you be so comfortable
with the stuff being produced here.
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