CB: As the theory of the national question and the African American people, I've heard your discussion of it a number of times, and your criticism of the CPUSA positions. What you say is ... I don't know what to call it...It's doesn't seem out and out wrong, but it's not particularly persuasive. I don't come away thinking you have refuted the CPUSA theses. I don't come away thinking that you have a better grasp of Lenin or Stalin's discussions of the national question and the right of self-determination as applied to the US than the CPUSA.
In fact, the way you discuss the US history of Black people not as a nation or nationality, and the immigrant European workers as not like peasants removed from the country side seems your own form of American Exceptionalism. Evidently, to you, America is different than Europe ,which is to say , in a way , that the U.S. is an exception to the pattern that Marxism has analyzed with Europe. *********** WL: Actually, I stated that in its social, political, cultural and economic genesis, America was a Southern country up until the Civil War. That African American are not a nation, have never been a nation and will never be a nation. ^^^^^ CB: Yes, you have stated this many times. Marx and Aptheker discuss that the South dominated the U.S. ( and colonies before) before the Civil War. So, on that part I don't have much of a problem. I don't know if I would use the formulation , "America was a Southern country ". "The slavocracy was the ruling class " , is a better way to say it. The other formulation is not an accurate reflection of the CP thesis, as I understand it. The position was that the African American people in the South had enough of the indicia of a nation so as to have the right of self-determination. Then said people can exercise that right ,but do not have to. Since they didn't , they didn't become a nation. The position is more that they were a potential nation. Economy, land, language, history , culture, religion... >From my standpoint, you would have to reiterate or make more of an argument as to why you are so adamently against this claim. I haven't read anything that you have written that persuades me of your thesis. ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ WL :American is different from Europe in an obvious way: there were not concrete economic and social feudal relations in America. I thought everyone agreed on this at this late date. ^^^^ CB: This is a typical feature of American exceptionalist argumentation. How is it that you are not making an American exceptionalist argument ? ^^^^^^ The US entered into an economic revolution from manufacturing to industry different from in Europe. In Europe the shift to industry cause great dislocation and tremendous struggle between town (bourgeoisie) and country (feudalists). A major part of this dislocation was by the outflow of the serfs into the towns. In America, all of this was avoided by importing the industrial workers from Europe. The native born American were family farmers and stayed such, more than less for another century. ^^^^^^ CB: African Americans were native born by the time they were part of the growth of industrial workers. ^^^^ WL :This is a peculiarly of our history never understood by the CPUSA and their theorists. ^^^^^^ CB: What's your evidence they didn't understand it ? I never noticed that CPUSA didn't notice this ? How is this peculiarity not a form of American exceptionalism ? ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ Here is why I have no hard feeling about the CPUSA early inability to come to grips with the Negro Question. ^^^^^^ CB: You have to make your argument better. I don't think you have established yet that you have come to grips with the Negro Question better than the CPUSA. Also, CPUSA had lots of practice in the South, so... From my standpoint , they are one up on you in theory. ^^^^^^^ WL :Marxism took root of course amongst the immigrant workers, who coached their concepts in certain realities of their home land. It was left to us to plainly state that America was Southern in its economic, political, cultural and everything before the Civil War. ^^^^^ CB: No, Marx stated this, and CPUSA, and Aptheker stated this before "you". This is part of general CP analysis. If you think not, then you have a mistaken view of CP view, and makes me wonder about your cricitism of CP if you don't know CP view of pre-Civil War. ^^^^^^^ The new nation that arose was in the North not the South. ^^^^ CB: This is a strange formulation. There weren't two different "nations" in the South and North. There was a ruling class, the slavocracy, and it was territorially concentrated in one part of the country. There was a revolution with Lincoln threatening to prevent anymore territorial expansion of slavery. The former ruling class carried out an attempted counter-revolutionary coup d'etat by its attacks initiating the war. They lost. New ruling class and qualitative change in the PROPERTY RELATIONS, in that a fundamental form of property in the system - ownership of people - was abolished, ( Aptheker formulation). ^^^^ Wait until you run into some real Southern intellectuals. The National Question deal with the North superseding and colonizing the South as the result of the Civil War. Kind of simple is it not. Very different from the legacy of the CPUSA or even the original Comintern documents. America is very different from Europe - which of course is not a country. America is of course a country. Waistline ^^^^^ CB: Simple , but doesn't exactly hang together. Notion of the US "was a Southern country" is not coherent, uhhh just doesn't work. Not sure if you have the CPUSA legacy accurately. I certainly didn't learn the CPUSA legacy the way you describe it. I'm something of part of the CPUSA legacy, and you are not saying what I think is the CP version of this history. "America is a very different from Europe" is "simply" American Exceptionalism. You might want to explain how it is not American Exceptionalism. _______________________________________________ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list [email protected] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
