What is not open is that revolution is inevitable as a nature outgrowth of the development of the means of production.
^^^^^^^ CB: Now we may be getting somewhere. That's right. Waistline2 ________________________________ >>So, it is not true that every revolution in science and technology results in social revolution. So, it is not certain that the cybertech rev in communication and transportation will result in social revolution. It is an open question. The initial result has been to reverse the geographical revolutionary combination of industrial proletarians, especially in the U.S. Perhaps in the long run there will be some dialectic by which this triggers social revolution. But that is an open factual question. WL: An open factual question . . . ? What do you think has been happening in Detroit? Ask the workers over on Mack at the two relatively new Chrysler Engine plants about the advance in the means of production. ^^^ CB; "Social revolution" is not on their lips. ^^^^^^ Look inside of any McDonald's hamburger joint at the advance in production. Surely you have had to notice the change in the way fries are cooked and the new computerize equipment installed over the past 10 - 15 years. You can call this a revolution in communications if that is your understanding but it is a revolution in production - the value system, in my estimate. ^^^^^ CB: A revolution in communication is a revolution in production. The cyberrev's impact is specifically in the communication and transportation aspects of production, especially. When I say revolution in communication and transportation, I mean revolution in production. ^^^^^^^ The cookers are advanced robotics in relationship to the old way of cooking fries . . . OK? Perhaps some McDonalds still have people flipping hamburgers but their new system cook burgies using advanced robotics. Hamburgers are no longer flipped! Really. You can call this a revolution in communications if that is your understanding but it is a revolution in production - the value system, in my estimate. ^^^^^ CB: By revolution in communication, I mean revolution in production. It's not a revolution in the exchange-value system. It is a revolution in the use-value system. ^^^^^^^ Or take newpaper production as an industry starting with say the New York strike of the 1980s and the revolution in this industry. Remember Compugraphic that revolutionized the industry of printing and now has went the way of the spinning wheel? You can call this a revolution in communications (cybertech rev) if that is your understanding but it is a revolution in production - the value system, in my estimate. I literally mean the revolution in the means of production rather than the category of "communications." Check out the modern stamping plants and stamping process and procedure and ask somebody what has happened over the past 25 years. Hey . . . you live right there with the largest stamping plant facility in North America on 15 mile Rd. and Van Dyke. Ask somebody. ^^^^ CB: Your whole discussion here goes off wrong because you seem to think that communications and transportation are not part of production. But they are. The specific way in which the cyberrev impacts production is in the communication and transportation aspects of production, especially. What are you thinking communication and transportation are part of other than production ? ^^^^^^ Check out the factories that build computer parts and not just the last stage assembly process. Ask the workers about the revolution in the paint departments of auto or the welding departments and almost the absolute displacement of all human labor. You can call this a revolution in communications (cybertech rev) if that is your understanding but it is a revolution in production - the value system, in my estimate. ^^^^^ CB: Your whole discussion here goes off wrong because you seem to think that communications and transportation are not part of production. But they are. The specific way in which the cyberrev impacts production is in the communication and transportation aspects of production, especially. What are you thinking communication and transportation are part of other than production ? At any rate, I _am_ saying that the cyberrev is in the instruments of production. Got it ? It is a technological rev, not a social rev. ^^^^^^^^ The grave diggers of the bourgeois mode of production are not the workers as such, but the property less proletariat shut out of social production or the "new class" or the communist sector of the proletariat ^^^^^ CB: The wage-laborer or proletarian, by definition owns no property but her labor power. All proletarians are "propertyless." Anyway , new class is fine to develop as an idea, but not it's not honest to insist that Engels and Marx didn't say that the whole of the proletariat, not just a sector of it, are the gravediggers of the bourgeoisie. ^^^^^^ and this will become obvious to the most die hard Marxists, clinging to the ideology of the period of the Third International. Nothing in history over the last 200 years can verify or authenticate that the proposition that the workers connected to large scale industry are the grave diggers of the bourgeois mode of production. ^^^^^ CB; The proletariat are all wage-laborers, not just the wage-laborers in large scale industry. So, you are just disagreeing with Marx and Engels on this point. Fine, nothing wrong with having new ideas. It is not ok to persist in saying that Marx and Engels said the same thing as you , when it is so evident that they didn't. ^^^^^^^^^ I don't speak of and write about a "cyber tech revolution in communications." ^^^^^ CB: I didn't say you did. It is my opinion that the impact of the cyber rev is especially in communication AND transportation. A robot is basically a superior communication of instructions to a machine. A robot is still a machine, as Marx analyzed the basic elements of a machine in the discussion of Modern Industry. However, here you are missing the point that communication is part of production. So, you keep talking as if revolution in communication is not a revolution in production. But a rev in communication is a rev in production. ^^^^^^^^^ You are free to understand what I write anyway you choose, but most of my writings speak for itself and have always been rather clear to the workers over the course of the past 35 years. ^^^^^ CB: I'm not talking about what you said. I'm talking about what I said. ^^^^^^^ What is not open is that revolution is inevitable as a nature outgrowth of the development of the means of production. ^^^^^^^ CB: Now we may be getting somewhere. That's right. ^^^^^^^^ Revolution is not insurrection. Communist insurrection is not inevitable in the short run. That is why we fight and use our God given gray matter. So many people use the term revolution without describing what they mean. ^^^^^ CB; See _The Manifesto of the Communist Party_ . Revolution now is the abolition of private property. Revolution is a change in the property relations. ^^^^ That is why we conflict all the time. Here is what I mean: A revolution is a complex and contradictory process. It is composed of interconnected and interactive stages of development, each having its objective or material and subjective or intellectual side. I generally describe the objective side and live the subjective side as an individual. These stages are 1) a revolution or qualitative change - addition, to and in the means of production that force, 2) a revolution in society or social revolution. Here social revolution is a combination of changes in the means of production that creates a consequence for human being. 3) The social revolution is crowned by a political revolution where representatives of one of the contending classes seize power and begins social reconstruction. A popular example I use to illustrate to the workers the meaning of revolution in the means of production is what they have lived and experienced in a generation sense: the mechanization of agriculture and their current displacement by computerization and advanced robotics and not a concept of "moving our jobs overseas." The character of work or the form of the laboring process is undergoing change. That is the revolution. ^^^^^ CB: It's not a social revolution. It is a revolution in the instruments of production. ^^^^^^^^- You means something different by revolution and confuses it with insurrection in my opinion. How do you see the insurrectionary movement? Waistline ^^^^^^ CB; Well, the taking of state power, by whatever means insurrection or otherwise, is a necessary component of revolution , because the property relations cannot be changed without changing the law which resides within the state power. No I do not identify the whole revolution with the insurrection; you are mistaken if you attribute that to me. For example, in Russia, the insurrection took place in about one day. The Russian Revolution was the process before and after this insurrection. The Russian Revolution only ended in about 1990 or so. In Venezuela, the revolution has been going on for several years. In Cuba, the insurrection was in 1959, but it continues to this day. _______________________________________________ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list [email protected] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
