CB , always a lawyer in the tradition of that attorney Lenin: >>Was the end of slavery a social revolution because it was a fundamental change in the property relations?<< CB: Yes, it was. And it was the revolution that resulted from the first phase of the industiral revolution, a development of the forces of production. The social revolution coincident with , and perhaps caused by, the steam engine phase of the industrial revolution, the original industrial revolution of capitalism, was the abolition of the slave property relations within capitalism.
MP, standing on his head , as usual: In the tradition of Lenin. I see. ^^^^^ CB: Flip over. You "see" upside down. ^^^^^^ Your ideology prevents you from posing and formulating question correctly. Read what you wrote. ^^^^ CB: Wrong again. You got it backwards. ^^^^^^^ The end of slavery did not change the property relations of the former Slave holding south. ^^^^^ CB: The end of slavery _was_ a change in the fundamental property relations of U.S. capitalism. It ended the form of property in human beings. ^^^^^ The slave property relations of the South was a bourgeois property relations. ^^^^^ CB: It was in the capitalist system, but it was not wage-labor/capital relations, which are not bourgeois-wagelabor property relations , but slave property relations. ^^^^^ Upsidedown line: This issue has confused many Marxist and specifically those whose history is linked with the approach of the Communist Party USA. ^^^^^ CB: Well , it has confused you. ^^^^^ Wrongline: There was no fundamental change in the property relations or the instruments of production for that matter after the overthrow of slavery. The South remained more than less unchanged for at least another 50 years. Actually until 1939. The property relations of the Slave holding south were not "slave property relations" but bourgeois property relations carried out and cemented using slaves as value producers. ^^^^^ CB; Wrong again. But that's what we count on you for - to almost have it exactly wrong. Then all we have to do is flip you over on your feet and we have the right answer. ^^^^^ I could quote Marx all day on this subject but you have your point of view. ^^^^^ CB: You could , but he probably would be saying the exact opposite of what you were quoting him for. ^^^^^ Wrongquote: Here is what Marx states and it is fairly clear to me. "In the second type of colonies - plantations - where commercial speculation figure from the start and production is intended for the world market, the capitalist mode of production exists, although only in the formal sense, since slavery of Negroes preclude free wage labor, which is the basis of capitalist production. But the business in which slaves are used is conducted by capitalists." ^^^^^ CB: Just as I expected, Marx agrees with me here: "since slavery of Negroes preclude free wage labor", free labor _being_ the capitalist property relation. ^^^^^^^ Further Marx states: "where the capitalist outlook prevails, as on the American plantations, this entire surplus value is regarded as profit . . ." ^^^^ CB: But none of the surplus value can be realized by selling it to slaves, because slaves aren't paid any wages. ^^^^^ In Capital Volume 1 Marx describes in unmistakable detail ^^^^^ CB: Well you could make a mistake at it. ^^^^^ why the slaves were carrying out bourgeois production. He most certainly calls the slave oligarchy bourgeois planters and on a couple of occasions speak of their bourgeois nature in his writings. You speak of "the abolition of the slave property relations within capitalism" and misunderstand the meaning of the value relations. ^^^^ CB: No, I understand them. It is u who misunderstand them. ^^^^^^^ There were no slave property relations as such but bourgeois property relations using slaves. ^^^^^ CB: This is a nonsense sentence. Only wage-laborers , socalled free labor, can be in bourgeois property relations. The slaves are in master-slave relations , of course. The U.S. Civil War occurred because the slaves were in slave relations , not bourgeois relations, and so slavery had to territorially expand or die. ^^^^^ In the same vain several writing speak of the horrors of the Jews in work labor camps under German fascism being reduced to a level below slaves. No Mr. Lawyer in the tradition of Lenin - there were no slave property relations in America. Southern agriculture was a bourgeois property relations that consisted of more than just the slaves. Pardon but there were a lot of white people in the South and only one section of the plantation South's population were slaves. The plantation south was not a society composed of just masters and slaves. The plantation South was composed of bourgeois planters, slaves, independent farmers and rural proletarians, sharecroppers and small business persons and merchants of all kinds. ^^^^^^^ CB: It is not the South that was abolished by the Civil War, but slavery in the South. ^^^^^^^ We are of course speaking of America rather than world history and the dissolution of feudalism? See what happens when one lives in the theater of the abstract . . . Mr. Lawyer. Melvin P. _______________________________________________ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list [email protected] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis _______________________________________________ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list [email protected] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
