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I just read Michael K.'s contribution and am really glad I did. On the other hand I skipped about 20 messages in this thread once it degenerated into a flame war. On Sat, Jul 26, 2014 at 8:36 PM, Michael Karadjis via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > ====================================================================== > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > ====================================================================== > > > -----Original Message----- From: Clay Claiborne via Marxism > > > and while, as their narrative makes clear, every >> > death is an individual tragedy, I still have seen no facts that back up > a claim that NATO caused massive civilian deaths in Sirte. > > The problem with this discussion when it comes to Sirte is that, even if > you convinced yourself that not many civilians were killed there (an > unlikely proposition) and that these deaths were "accidental", surely the > issue is whether NATO had any right whatsoever (I don't mean "legal" right > but ethical or any way you look at it) to be bombing the hell out of this > city. > > Obviously, most in this discussion, other than Clay, have said that it's > not a great idea to call on NATO to intervene even in exceptional > circumstances. > > But even if we were to concede, for argument's sake, that there was a case > to support NATO defending Benghazi from an immanent massacre by Gaddafi > (I'd prefer to say, "difficult in practice to oppose, and that was > Gaddafi's fault, and who can blame the Libyans in Benghazi for calling for > it") then surely such "support" or toleration should only be for the most > minimum time necessary. In fact even Gilbert Achcar, who was essentially > misquoted as "supporting" (rather than not opposing) the initial > intervention to protect Benghazi, said within a couple of weeks of that > event, that once that was done, if NATO settles in for a more prolonged > involvement, we should vigorously demand NATO out. Whatever Gaddafi was, I > don' think socialists should have supported a 6-month NATO intervention > fighting on the side of the NTC to help bring it to power in Libya. > > But again for argument's sake, even if one really did think that was a > good idea, how can one possibly justify a continued NATO intervention > *after Gaddafi had been ousted from power*? Gaddafi fell in August, yet the > bloody sieges of Sirte and Bani Walid continued for another two full > months. As NATO bombed these cities from the sky (allegedly trying to avoid > "accidents"), the ex-rebels besieged them on the ground. Thus whatever > one's view on the previous engagement, surely the roles by now were > completely reversed: NATO was by then launching an air war against two > population centres on behalf of a new regime; the populations of these two > cities were now the "rebels" because they didn't support the new regime; > however, they were not launching a rebellion to take power, merely to keep > the new NTC/Misrata militia goons out. > > Why was it necessary for NATO and the NTC to bomb these cities into > submission for two months? Obviously not to "protect civilians" a la > Benghazi 8 months earlier. I suggest to consolidate the process of turning > what had begun as a liberation movement into its opposite, turning former > rebel militias into repressive bodies of the new state. In the process, > demolishing Sirte, making it look like the cities and towns all over Syria > that have been demolished by Assad, as abundant photographic evidence will > show. An epic war crime. > ________________________________________________ > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu > Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/ > options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com > ________________________________________________ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
