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On 9/10/2010 7:25 PM, waistli...@aol.com wrote: > Most certainly world Troskyism has been discredited on the > national-colonial factor from the standpoint of the majority of communist > movement world wide and in the colonies for the past 70 years. Which might be be given greater weight if it weren't true that "the majority of communist movement world wide and in the colonies for the past 70 years" has been an absolute train wreck. In particular, the currents that descended from or identified with Stalin's leadership of the USSR from the mid-1920s forward did tremendous damage to the socialist cause by catastrophically botching the job of building socialism. So much so that all the countries they led have openly (USSR, Eastern Europe) or in all but name (China) gone capitalist. But it must be recognized at least part of the reason for the overall failure of the communist movement has been that the currents that call themselves Trotskyist have ALSO been pretty much a complete failure, and this, judged on their own terms. This failure of Trotskyism on a world scale over that same period of about three-quarters of a century consists in the failure to achieve the stated goal: the building of a revolutionary parties including ones displacing the misleaders of "really existing [bureaucratic] socialism" Trotskyist groups, broadly speaking, claim that having the correct ideas/program is the key to success. But assuming for argument's sake that this theses is true, the actual practical results show that, in fact, the proposition is false. Thus, on its own terms, by its own lights, Trotskyism failed. Or I should stress, "also failed," for the record of the rest of the movement is hardly inspiring. The ONE current that did have *relatively* more success in the post-WWII world includes much of what is usually dismissed in Trotskyist circles as "Maoism" but I think should be much more appropriately called "third world Marxism." I don't think it should be called "Maoism" NOT because some/many of its more representative forces or leaders did/did not identify with or look to China from around 1950 and on for a quarter century as a guide/inspiration/example/reference, but because using those sorts of terms ("Guevaraism" "Maoism" "Trotskyism" "Castroism") perpetuates the error of considering "third world Marxism" as primarily an *ideological* phenomena rather than actual *movements.* What kind of movements? Frankly, here I think Waistline, despite my ideological disagreement with him hit the nail on the head. These are all NATIONAL movements of third world peoples against (most often) direct colonialism and more generally imperialism. And most --but not all-- currents that trace their origin back to the Trotskyist movement have adopted sectarian positions towards these national movements. I don't think it's particularly useful today to be looking back and seeing which of the currents that descended first from Marx and Engels and then the Comintern are "better" in the sense of serving as a model, at least partly, for what is needed today. The rebirth of revolutionary socialism or Marxism today is coming not from a rediscovery or reshaping or resurgence of various 20th-Century ideological trends within Communism, but from actual movements, especially in Latin America, and viewed as an ideology, this rebirth is not the continuation of those trends, but the ideological expression of the new social movements. "Chavismo" --if I can use that term-- did not present in the first instance as a socialist current *at all* but rather as what a number of folks on this list and in similar ideological spaces dismissively refer to as "populism" or "Bonapartism." What it was and remains is the national movement of a people dominated, oppressed and exploited by imperialism. The idea of creating the Socialism of the 21st Century, is something that the Bolivarian Revolution --the Venezuelan national movement-- came to thanks to (in part) the extraordinary leadership provided by Hugo Chavez and the tremendous influence of the Cuban Revolution, the one socialist revolution of the 20th Century that survived into the 21st Century as a genuine revolution. But it is very clear that Bolivarianism is not simply an outgrowth nor a transplant of Fidelismo nor anything like that. The Bolivarian Revolution came to similar conclusions as the Cuban Revolution in its own way, on its own road --tremendously helped, it is true, by the illumination provided by the Cuban experience in finding its way. But it is not a clone, copy, adaptation or even application of the "Cuban model." This is what Fidel was telling Goldberg when the journalist asked if the Cuban model still worked for other countries. Fidel said it doesn't even work for Cuba any more. He said that because, really, Cuba never applied a "model," it is only in retrospect that one can speak of a Cuban (or for that matter, a Soviet or even Maoist "model"). And trying to stick to a "model" as political and economic circumstances. It's the same sort of idea that Silvio Rodríguez expressed in saying what needs to happen is that the "r" needs to be clipped off from "revolution." Cuba doesn't need revolution, it needs evolution rather than sticking to old ways of doing things, to a frozen "model," even its own. So the Bolivarian "Socialism of the 21st Century" cannot be the implantation of the Cuban or some other model. But it is obviously, transparently, very much part of a common phenomenon with Cuba and the re-emerging revolutionary anti-imperialist and socialist movement on a continental scale. But of course, the Venezuelan national movement is not the only national movement in the Third World. There are others in Latin America that are to varying degrees similar. But national movements exist the world over. In that connection, I just about had a cow last night when I read a post describing Ahmadinejad as a right-wing populist. What does that mean? TO ME, it means some comrades spend too much time reading the imperialist press and absorbing its messages instead of trying to *understand* what is behind them. If I see some third world government accused of "populism" by the press, my immediate gut reaction is, gee, I didn't realize this government had a good side. Invariably, when a government in the semi-colonial world is accused of "populism," it means (at the very least) that it is less cooperative in the robbery of the country's resources and the rape of its population than the Wall Street bandits would prefer. And that is UNDOUBTEDLY what it means in the Iran case. This is NOT about backpackers and NOT about stoning as an appropriate punishment for a woman implicated in the alleged murder of her husband (as opposed to being fried in the electric chair, or poisoned intravenously, as might be done in the USA). Iran is a real horrorshow on this and other similar issues, but that is NOT the reason we talk about it. The reason we talk about it is because the imperialists use it as part of their drive to strengthen their domination of that country. These imperialist propaganda campaigns have NOTHING to do with defending human rights or women's rights in general. If that were the case we would, at least once in a very blue moon, see a piece on CNN about one of the hundreds of beheadings in Saudi Arabia in the past few years, or the legally sanctioned systematic use of torture --including amputations of hand and feet, flogging and so on-- or the gender apartheid imposed on women in that country. In pretty much every way that the imperialists complain about in relation to Iran, the Saudi Arabian state is way more backward and barbarous than Iran. This stuff about Iran is really about a country that for more than a century has been a victim of Anglo-American imperialism and is tired of it. As for the character of the Iranian leadership, before throwing a lot of stones it needs to be understood that this is also OUR fault, the fault of the Communist and workers and anti-imperialist movement of the last 100 years, the broad historical movement identified with the socialism of Marx and Engels. We collectively, sectarians and opportunists, social democrats and communists, trots, stalinists, maoists, and the rest of it, succeeded in making socialism so profoundly repulsive that leaders propounding the obscurantist nonsense of religion were able to win hegemony within the national movement in Iran and many other places. Today socialism is re-emerging as the leading current in the national movements of Latin America and perhaps it can even begin to be said of the national movement of Latin America as a whole. But how the very different ideological situation in the movements in the Arab and Muslim world will begin to shift is far from clear. In Latin America, secular revolutionary currents have succeeded in grounding themselves in the deep historic roots of the drive to create nations in reaction to foreign domination and exploitation (first by the colonialists from the Iberian peninsula, later replaced by Whitehall and the White House). This has been a key to their success. In the rest of the world, other currents have already filled that vacuum. That this needs to change is obvious, but I doubt greatly one can come a single flea-hop closer to achieving it with denunciatory propaganda. And there's a real problem when that propaganda is sparked by or coincides with the themes of imperialist press campaigns. At any rate, it's time to turn the page. How to advance in the creation and development of the socialism of the 21st Century as a world phenomenon is what should preoccupy us, not playing the blame game in relation to what happened in the last Century. Joaquín ________________________________________________ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com