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Carlos Rebello said: "one must take Lula’s politics as a necessary departure-point" Indeed, Carlos' point is even more apt in the "point of departure" that revolutionists Outside of Brazil must take as opposed to those Inside. From the outside, apart from a correct analysis of the nature of the Brazilian government, state, property relations, and the role of Lula or any other political force, revolutionists must always defend whatever hard-won or even serendipitous gains for the working masses of any country, especially in the "developing nations", if that term still applies (remembering that when we say "Lula", we are referring to a current in a political spectrum and not some individual that is at best inconsequential unless we want to engage in idolatry, which I do not believe anyone is saying here). It is unlikely that one's Outside support or criticism will be anything but solidarity, annoying (if simply criticism rather critical) or detrimental to the those working Inside depending on the correctness and utility of such an analysis. For those on working on the Inside (i.e., Brazilian revolutionists, activists, etc.), the role of different forces including those like Lula take on a different level of importance and perhaps even more complication. However, it is the role of the Outside to support the potential for the working masses and their (likely still nascent) revolutionary-minded forces (a) to continue their struggle for working class liberation (i.e., political freedom to organize, mobilization, etc.) and (b) to educate radicalizing workers, youth, and oppressed nationalities toward ever more degrees of revolutionary consciousness that result in ever more conscious political action toward the winning of democratic and working class power over capitalism. The issues of "micro" changes are only relevant if there is a transitional approach to these "macro" changes, which I believe is what Carlos (and Joaquín) are trying to explain. Everybody wants to show how "we" are not fooled by "micro" change leading to lesser-evilism and how we won't be lul(a)led into support for bourgeois nationalism or liberalism. If there are those who believe that supporting Lula is the end of the line in the march to, well, not socialism, but some "good enough" state that socialist can accept as "the best that we can accomplish" (like, you know, the Tom Haydens and their "Left Establishment" ilk will say about the Democrats), then that kind of thinking can and should be denounced. However, if we all recognize that it is probably desirable to bring the masses to consciousness by our unrelenting defense of bourgoeis-demcratic gains through the rise of government that is the result of mass movement and enhances the potential for mobilization of the workers, peasants, and all others oppressed by the forces of capital, well, let's just keep our class wits about us as we get immersed in actual struggles. In short, nobody (even if it is your mother, wife, or daughter) likes a back-seat driver constantly telling you what you already know about driving. Siempre en solidaridad con los pueblos oprimidos en su verdadera lucha, Manuel ________________________________________________ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com