Dear Amalyah, Ok here is a perspective and some experience from a large, business-driven art museum. The Detroit Institute of Arts possesses rights to a large corpus of images of very high and covetable quality, both from its permanent collection and through exhibition projects. Like many organizations, we saw in the creation of Corbis and the like an ability to create a revenue center by careful management of "rights and reproductions," making this part of a business model now more than 20 years old.
Over that time period, as Eve Sinaiko, the Director of Publications for the College Arts Association, points out, the cost of art book publishing has skyrocketed, and the business of art book publishing continues to spiral downward. As a result, our revenue from rights and reproductions has diminished steadily to its current trickle--to the extent that we have just eliminated the full-time position required to manage that business. As policy, and we have been following this discussion with interest, we are transitioning to some version of almost free-circulation of images in the public domain, while still committed to protecting artists' rights, informed by the notion that the "rights and reproductions" business model conflicts with more expansive program initiatives involving on-line access and social media. At our scale, which is big for museums, the business of making revenue from images does not work very well. Hope this helps, David W. Penney Vice President of Exhibitions and Collections Strategies The Detroit Institute of Arts -----Original Message----- From: mcn-l-bounces at mcn.edu [mailto:mcn-l-boun...@mcn.edu] On Behalf Of mcn-l-request at mcn.edu Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 3:00 PM To: mcn-l at mcn.edu Subject: mcn-l Digest, Vol 44, Issue 21 Send mcn-l mailing list submissions to mcn-l at mcn.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://toronto.mediatrope.com/mailman/listinfo/mcn-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to mcn-l-request at mcn.edu You can reach the person managing the list at mcn-l-owner at mcn.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of mcn-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. ??RE: ??RE: Image Sizes (later Image Theft) (Amalyah Keshet [akeshet at imj.org.il]) 2. Re: ??RE: ??RE: Image Sizes (later Image Theft) (Gose, Denise) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 08:08:48 +0200 From: "Amalyah Keshet [akeshet at imj.org.il]" <akes...@imj.org.il> Subject: [MCN-L] ??RE: ??RE: Image Sizes (later Image Theft) To: Museum Computer Network Listserv <mcn-l at mcn.edu> Message-ID: <9844AFCBFFF93540889F30E865CEFD781F4ABB91DC at mailsrv.imj.org.il> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Alan, Gunter, et al.: Perhaps I haven't make it clear that the position I'm arguing IS the policy decision of my particular institution. I love thinking (and arguing) about how other, way-out-there creative ideas (including Radiohead's brilliant if limited marketing gimmick) - so I'm enjoying this conversation. (I just wish others would chime in. Ahem!) But there are institutions that have enough money to allocate according to mission-based policy and budget decisions, and there are institutions that are bottom-line, revenue-based. My job at present is to draw up a business plan that for turning a traditional rights & reproductions operation into an online stock photo agency, if you will, with a healthy revenue stream. It's a challenge, to put it mildly. I am only cautiously optimistic, and the points you bring up are part of the reason why. But this is the decision of management, and it's my job to carry it through. So, whatever ideas anyone on this amazing list can come up with are more than welcome. Even Gunter's far-out in-the-cloud idea. (Just kidding, Gunter. Make it happen!) I know that others are in the same boat and following this conversation closely. Amalyah ________________________________________ ?????: ??mcn-l-bounces at mcn.edu [mcn-l-bounces at mcn.edu] ??? Waibel,Guenter [waibelg at oclc.org] ??????: ????? ????? 21 ??? 2009 20:10 ????: Museum Computer Network Listserv ??????: Re: [MCN-L] ??RE: Image Sizes (later Image Theft) Alan, I really enjoyed reading about your creative solution to the perennial dilemma of image licensing, and I am keeping my fingers crossed that you can make "pay what you can afford" a reality and report back to all of us how you fared. You've got me at the edge of my seat. As for the initial cost of setting up such a system, which is of great concern to Amalyah and others: this, like so many other things museums are currently doing redundantly and at great cost in their own basements, would be a great opportunity for a collective service. If Alan's model succeeds, why would every museum have to develop / purchase their own licensing system, and run it locally? Shouldn't this be a configurable service in the cloud you could subscribe to for a reasonable fee? Cheers, G?nter -----Original Message----- From: mcn-l-bounces at mcn.edu [mailto:mcn-l-boun...@mcn.edu] On Behalf Of Newman, Alan Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 5:17 AM To: Museum Computer Network Listserv Subject: Re: [MCN-L] ??RE: Image Sizes (later Image Theft) Hi Amalyah, My point was that after the build the maintenance costs are trivial to keep the self-serve part of the system going. There is only automated file delivery and no human service...for that part of the program. The main question, debated here often, is whether this should be mission-driven public policy rather than thought off as a crucial revenue stream. In my imaginary proposal you get both. Alan -----Original Message----- From: mcn-l-boun...@mcn.edu on behalf of Amalyah Keshet [akeshet at imj.org.il] Sent: Thu 5/21/2009 4:26 AM To: Museum Computer Network Listserv Subject: [MCN-L] ??RE: Image Sizes (later Image Theft) "When we build self-serve sites for image licensing which have trivial costs after the build, and especially if we are using the people's money, it is hard to justify charging for extant images of public domain art." Trivial costs? Not according to our CIO. I'm struggling to get something like this online, due to the sheer cost, which is most certainly not paid for by "the people's money". And we need to remember that people aren't paying for "images of public domain art" (an abstract) but for image files + delivery + service. "As Mark Jones, director of the V&A remarked, paraphrased as told to me, "the people paid for this once, why should they pay again?" Perhaps the V&A is a fully-government-funded institution (with a very active commercial branch, V&A Enterprises, Ltd., to help support it -- including an excellent for-payment picture library). But not so my non-government-funded institution. We literally do not have a photography budget. High-quality images are paid for by individual exhibition catalog budgets, which are fully funded by private donations. Amalyah Keshet Head of Image Resources & Copyright Management The Israel Museum, Jerusalem ________________________________________ ? From: Newman, Alan <a-new...@nga.gov> Subject: Re: [MCN-L] Image Sizes (later Image Theft) To: "Museum Computer Network Listserv" <mcn-l at mcn.edu> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 1:12 PM Nik, Matt, Ken, Nancy, Mike et al, Here's another music model --- from Radiohead (quoting from Wikipedia") "Radiohead's seventh album, In Rainbows, was released through the band's own website on 10 October 2007 as a digital download for which customers could make whatever payment that they wanted, including nothing; the site only advised, "it's up to you".[46] Following the band's sudden announcement 10 days beforehand, Radiohead's unusual strategy received much notice within the music industry and beyond.[47] 1.2 million downloads were reportedly sold by the day of release,[48] but the band's management did not release official sales figures, claiming that the Internet-only distribution was intended to boost later retail sales." So we adopt a museum convention in use at the Met and elsewhere for admissions: pay what you can afford for images. What could be more fair? What could draw more attention to our collections? Who knows, this might be the answer to Mariet Westermann's recommendation to streamline image licensing. When we build self-serve sites for image licensing which have trivial costs after the build, and especially if we are using the people's money, it is hard to justify charging for extant images of public domain art. As Mark Jones, director of the V&A remarked, paraphrased as told to me, "the people paid for this once, why should they pay again?" Nik, wish me luck getting this through. Alan Newman On 5/5/09 6:23 PM, "Nik Honeysett" <NHoneysett at getty.edu> wrote: > This reminds me of a classic example in the music industry in the early 90's. > Blue Note Record's legal team came across a 12" single called "The Band Played > the Boogie" featuring an illegal sampling of Grant Green's "Sookie Sookie", > enjoying a huge underground following. Rather than pursue a suit, Blue Note > hired the group and gave them access to their full back catalogue. The > resulting release was Blue Note's first platinum-selling album (Us3 - Hand on > the Torch). So, put your images out there, wait for someone to figure out > how to make money from them, then hire them. (wish me luck with getting that > through our general counsel). -nik _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to mcn-l, the listserv of the Museum Computer Network (http://www.mcn.edu) To post to this list, send messages to: mcn-l at mcn.edu To unsubscribe or change mcn-l delivery options visit: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/mailman/listinfo/mcn-l The MCN-L archives can be found at: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/pipermail/mcn-l/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to mcn-l, the listserv of the Museum Computer Network (http://www.mcn.edu) To post to this list, send messages to: mcn-l at mcn.edu To unsubscribe or change mcn-l delivery options visit: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/mailman/listinfo/mcn-l The MCN-L archives can be found at: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/pipermail/mcn-l/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to mcn-l, the listserv of the Museum Computer Network (http://www.mcn.edu) To post to this list, send messages to: mcn-l at mcn.edu To unsubscribe or change mcn-l delivery options visit: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/mailman/listinfo/mcn-l The MCN-L archives can be found at: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/pipermail/mcn-l/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to mcn-l, the listserv of the Museum Computer Network (http://www.mcn.edu) To post to this list, send messages to: mcn-l at mcn.edu To unsubscribe or change mcn-l delivery options visit: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/mailman/listinfo/mcn-l The MCN-L archives can be found at: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/pipermail/mcn-l/ ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 08:45:27 -0700 From: "Gose, Denise" <go...@ccp.library.arizona.edu> Subject: Re: [MCN-L] ??RE: ??RE: Image Sizes (later Image Theft) To: "Museum Computer Network Listserv" <mcn-l at mcn.edu> Message-ID: <D8828B9129050541AF4256CD00D50EC9183A4B5D at Smethurst.library.arizona.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" The Center for Creative Photography is in the infancy (testing) stages of getting the fine print catalog online. Most of the work is protected by copyright, and can't be licensed out by us, but sixteen of the copyrights are owned or managed by CCP. We're thinking of a self-serve licensing system at some point, but curious if anyone has considered how to deal with a complex pricing model, based on print run, repro size, distribution, and non-profit vs. commercial. And how do you ensure that the works are reproduced according to your institution's guidelines without human interaction? The revenue stream supports vital museum functions, so we need to approach cautiously. Conversely, we're thinking of making some or all of CCP's public domain works available for free. Denise Gos? Rights and Reproductions Manager Center for Creative Photography University of Arizona -----Original Message----- From: mcn-l-bounces at mcn.edu [mailto:mcn-l-boun...@mcn.edu] On Behalf Of akeshet at imj.org.il Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 11:09 PM To: Museum Computer Network Listserv Subject: [MCN-L] ??RE: ??RE: Image Sizes (later Image Theft) Alan, Gunter, et al.: Perhaps I haven't make it clear that the position I'm arguing IS the policy decision of my particular institution. I love thinking (and arguing) about how other, way-out-there creative ideas (including Radiohead's brilliant if limited marketing gimmick) - so I'm enjoying this conversation. (I just wish others would chime in. Ahem!) But there are institutions that have enough money to allocate according to mission-based policy and budget decisions, and there are institutions that are bottom-line, revenue-based. My job at present is to draw up a business plan that for turning a traditional rights & reproductions operation into an online stock photo agency, if you will, with a healthy revenue stream. It's a challenge, to put it mildly. I am only cautiously optimistic, and the points you bring up are part of the reason why. But this is the decision of management, and it's my job to carry it through. So, whatever ideas anyone on this amazing list can come up with are more than welcome. Even Gunter's far-out in-the-cloud idea. (Just kidding, Gunter. Make it happen!) I know that others are in the same boat and following this conversation closely. Amalyah ________________________________________ ?????: ??mcn-l-bounces at mcn.edu [mcn-l-bounces at mcn.edu] ??? Waibel,Guenter [waibelg at oclc.org] ??????: ????? ????? 21 ??? 2009 20:10 ????: Museum Computer Network Listserv ??????: Re: [MCN-L] ??RE: Image Sizes (later Image Theft) Alan, I really enjoyed reading about your creative solution to the perennial dilemma of image licensing, and I am keeping my fingers crossed that you can make "pay what you can afford" a reality and report back to all of us how you fared. You've got me at the edge of my seat. As for the initial cost of setting up such a system, which is of great concern to Amalyah and others: this, like so many other things museums are currently doing redundantly and at great cost in their own basements, would be a great opportunity for a collective service. If Alan's model succeeds, why would every museum have to develop / purchase their own licensing system, and run it locally? Shouldn't this be a configurable service in the cloud you could subscribe to for a reasonable fee? Cheers, G?nter -----Original Message----- From: mcn-l-bounces at mcn.edu [mailto:mcn-l-boun...@mcn.edu] On Behalf Of Newman, Alan Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 5:17 AM To: Museum Computer Network Listserv Subject: Re: [MCN-L] ??RE: Image Sizes (later Image Theft) Hi Amalyah, My point was that after the build the maintenance costs are trivial to keep the self-serve part of the system going. There is only automated file delivery and no human service...for that part of the program. The main question, debated here often, is whether this should be mission-driven public policy rather than thought off as a crucial revenue stream. In my imaginary proposal you get both. Alan -----Original Message----- From: mcn-l-boun...@mcn.edu on behalf of Amalyah Keshet [akeshet at imj.org.il] Sent: Thu 5/21/2009 4:26 AM To: Museum Computer Network Listserv Subject: [MCN-L] ??RE: Image Sizes (later Image Theft) "When we build self-serve sites for image licensing which have trivial costs after the build, and especially if we are using the people's money, it is hard to justify charging for extant images of public domain art." Trivial costs? Not according to our CIO. I'm struggling to get something like this online, due to the sheer cost, which is most certainly not paid for by "the people's money". And we need to remember that people aren't paying for "images of public domain art" (an abstract) but for image files + delivery + service. "As Mark Jones, director of the V&A remarked, paraphrased as told to me, "the people paid for this once, why should they pay again?" Perhaps the V&A is a fully-government-funded institution (with a very active commercial branch, V&A Enterprises, Ltd., to help support it -- including an excellent for-payment picture library). But not so my non-government-funded institution. We literally do not have a photography budget. High-quality images are paid for by individual exhibition catalog budgets, which are fully funded by private donations. Amalyah Keshet Head of Image Resources & Copyright Management The Israel Museum, Jerusalem ________________________________________ ? From: Newman, Alan <a-new...@nga.gov> Subject: Re: [MCN-L] Image Sizes (later Image Theft) To: "Museum Computer Network Listserv" <mcn-l at mcn.edu> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 1:12 PM Nik, Matt, Ken, Nancy, Mike et al, Here's another music model --- from Radiohead (quoting from Wikipedia") "Radiohead's seventh album, In Rainbows, was released through the band's own website on 10 October 2007 as a digital download for which customers could make whatever payment that they wanted, including nothing; the site only advised, "it's up to you".[46] Following the band's sudden announcement 10 days beforehand, Radiohead's unusual strategy received much notice within the music industry and beyond.[47] 1.2 million downloads were reportedly sold by the day of release,[48] but the band's management did not release official sales figures, claiming that the Internet-only distribution was intended to boost later retail sales." So we adopt a museum convention in use at the Met and elsewhere for admissions: pay what you can afford for images. What could be more fair? What could draw more attention to our collections? Who knows, this might be the answer to Mariet Westermann's recommendation to streamline image licensing. When we build self-serve sites for image licensing which have trivial costs after the build, and especially if we are using the people's money, it is hard to justify charging for extant images of public domain art. As Mark Jones, director of the V&A remarked, paraphrased as told to me, "the people paid for this once, why should they pay again?" Nik, wish me luck getting this through. Alan Newman On 5/5/09 6:23 PM, "Nik Honeysett" <NHoneysett at getty.edu> wrote: > This reminds me of a classic example in the music industry in the early 90's. > Blue Note Record's legal team came across a 12" single called "The Band Played > the Boogie" featuring an illegal sampling of Grant Green's "Sookie Sookie", > enjoying a huge underground following. Rather than pursue a suit, Blue Note > hired the group and gave them access to their full back catalogue. The > resulting release was Blue Note's first platinum-selling album (Us3 - Hand on > the Torch). So, put your images out there, wait for someone to figure out > how to make money from them, then hire them. (wish me luck with getting that > through our general counsel). -nik _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to mcn-l, the listserv of the Museum Computer Network (http://www.mcn.edu) To post to this list, send messages to: mcn-l at mcn.edu To unsubscribe or change mcn-l delivery options visit: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/mailman/listinfo/mcn-l The MCN-L archives can be found at: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/pipermail/mcn-l/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to mcn-l, the listserv of the Museum Computer Network (http://www.mcn.edu) To post to this list, send messages to: mcn-l at mcn.edu To unsubscribe or change mcn-l delivery options visit: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/mailman/listinfo/mcn-l The MCN-L archives can be found at: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/pipermail/mcn-l/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to mcn-l, the listserv of the Museum Computer Network (http://www.mcn.edu) To post to this list, send messages to: mcn-l at mcn.edu To unsubscribe or change mcn-l delivery options visit: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/mailman/listinfo/mcn-l The MCN-L archives can be found at: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/pipermail/mcn-l/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to mcn-l, the listserv of the Museum Computer Network (http://www.mcn.edu) To post to this list, send messages to: mcn-l at mcn.edu To unsubscribe or change mcn-l delivery options visit: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/mailman/listinfo/mcn-l The MCN-L archives can be found at: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/pipermail/mcn-l/ _______________________________________________ You are currently subscribed to mcn-l, the listserv of the Museum Computer Network (http://www.mcn.edu) To post to this list, send messages to: mcn-l at mcn.edu To unsubscribe or change mcn-l delivery options visit: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/mailman/listinfo/mcn-l The MCN-L archives can be found at: http://toronto.mediatrope.com/pipermail/mcn-l/ ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ mcn-l mailing list mcn-l at mcn.edu http://toronto.mediatrope.com/mailman/listinfo/mcn-l End of mcn-l Digest, Vol 44, Issue 21 *************************************
