The constitution, let alone some of its amendments came about due to drastic differences of opinion that resulted in many deaths. It is not just a nice game to play. If one approaches it that way, as just nice rules, it will never 'form a more perfect union' and one will see it continue to be interpreted and/or changed in ways one doesn't wish it to.
Roe vs Wade is just one recent example. I have lived during the era when women were butchered during illegal abortions since all abortions were illegal. Then, when they were made legal, fanatics intimidated and in some cases killed those who followed the law. Now, one finds many states do not provide the service at all due to legal and illegal intimidation as well as changes to the law. Again, it is NOT some nice game to play. On Sep 16, 7:59 am, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bosco's is the only bar I've been admitted to - and even they give me > strange looks. :-) > > I do hope you can join Memphis Atheists there on the 24th! > > Aaron > > On Sep 16, 8:59 am, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Hi y'all - you must have been admitted to the bar. I'll check out > > Bosco's. > > > On Sep 16, 8:53 am, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > LOL. That's funny! It's important to keep general political issues > > > separate from strictly constitutional ones, though. The constitution > > > does not protect us from stupid laws. It just makes sure we follow > > > the rules of the game. > > > > In this case, the umpires have ruled that it's okay to have a moment > > > of silence. Students have a right to pray (silently) during the > > > moment of silence. The state can even pass laws to protect the > > > students' right to pray during a moment of silence, but it cannot > > > favor or discourage prayer during that time (or any other). > > > > Now, most school districts consider it too much trouble to tread so > > > fine a line. They have given up the practice altogether. That's > > > probably the wisest choice. But "the people" aren't always wise. If > > > there is sufficient political will in our state for a moment of > > > silence, then the legislature is acting properly to make sure it is > > > implemented and remains technically in compliance with the Court's > > > rulings. > > > > A constitutional challenge is appropriate if we think they've crossed > > > the line. It's not appropriate just because we think the law is "a > > > stupid shell held over from the days of school prayer." > > > > But then, lawyers have never been big on propriety. > > > > Aaron > > > > On Sep 15, 2:53 pm, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > I agree that it probably is not unconstitutional on its face, but it is > > > > a thinly veiled attempt at prayer. I think that before or after the > > > > "moment of silence", as Orn has hinted, you should have the "moment of > > > > cacophony" or the "pause for pandemonium". Why does it have to be > > > > silence? Why couldn't everyone just say their piece aloud whether it > > > > be a prayer, incantation or a series of burps? Get it all out your > > > > system prior to starting the school day! > > > > > Preston > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "ornamentalmind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "Memphis Freethought Alliance" > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 2:18 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Column on a moment of silence > > > > > Perhaps to test the case, those who do not wish to pray could sing > > > > songs during that time? Or, as suggested elsewhere start a long and > > > > loud chanting of ‘OM’? They clearly wouldn't be praying....and, those > > > > who wanted silence could of course wait for a different time to pray, > > > > err, have a moment of silence on their own time, not that of the > > > > taxpayers. > > > > > I guess one could also go up to each person during the moment of > > > > silence and say that they were NOT allowed to pray...and ask if they > > > > were?....At the very least, since it is the law, it could be required > > > > to give the directive, just prior to the moment of silence, that NO > > > > ONE was allowed to pray during that time? > > > > > Of course all of this sounds silly....and that is because the entire > > > > theater of ‘a moment of silence’ is itself deceptive to the core. > > > > > On Sep 15, 12:06 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Like I said, there may be something about the law that would cause it > > > > > to fail a constitutional challenge. If you can prove the state's > > > > > purpose is to sanction (or discourage!) prayer then the law should be > > > > > invalidated. But it will take more than the simple fact that the law > > > > > was changed periodically to make it compliant with Supreme Court > > > > > rulings. That's fairly routine when the Court hands down a major > > > > > decision. > > > > > > Also, how does a moment of silence single out non-religious students? > > > > > Isn't the whole thing, well, silent? > > > > > > Aaron > > > > > > On Sep 15, 10:28 am, "Angelia Stinnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > It's descriminary when praying children pray and non religious > > > > > > children do > > > > > > not, singling out the non religious and sets them up for possible > > > > > > abuse from > > > > > > teachers and other students. > > > > > > > It's unconstitutional when there is a paper trail that proves its > > > > > > purpose > > > > > > was to maintain the provocation of gods in schools. However, it > > > > > > would be a > > > > > > hell of a case to argue in Tennessee with all the Jesus toting > > > > > > politicians. > > > > > > The moment of silence is what's left of school prayer, as a result > > > > > > of > > > > > > lawsuits. When one statute is overruled, the he-haws pass another > > > > > > one in > > > > > > state legislation. > > > > > > > It's going to take me 5 years, but I am going for a law degree and > > > > > > intend to > > > > > > change a few things at the Capital. I intend to be the most hated > > > > > > woman in > > > > > > Tennessee....with a body guard. > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > You are articulate and thought-provoking, Angelia. The strongest > > > > > > > parts of your column deal with the blatant silliness of the > > > > > > > "moment of > > > > > > > silence" you described. The practice doesn't sound effective; it > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > fraught with potential for misuse; and it exposes the school to > > > > > > > unnecessary litigation. > > > > > > > > I'm not convinced by your legal argument, though. A moment of > > > > > > > silence > > > > > > > is not unconstitutional on its face. The Supreme Court case > > > > > > > Wallace > > > > > > > v. Jaffree (1985) struck down an Alabama law, but only because the > > > > > > > state legislature blatantly tried to endorse prayer. The Court > > > > > > > said, > > > > > > > "The legislative intent to return prayer to the public schools > > > > > > > is, of > > > > > > > course, quite different from merely protecting every student's > > > > > > > right > > > > > > > to engage in voluntary prayer during an appropriate moment of > > > > > > > silence > > > > > > > during the schoolday." > > > > > > > > So, the Court specifically affirmed that a moment of silence can > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > "appropriate" - even if it involves prayer. Now, there may be > > > > > > > something else about the Tennessee law that would make it fail a > > > > > > > constitutional test, but I doubt the case is as open-and-shut as > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > column suggests. A moment of silence may be bad policy, but it's > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > necessarily unconstitutional or discriminatory. That case has not > > > > > > > been made. > > > > > > > > Aaron- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
