On Sep 18, 9:59 am, Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
"Material" is a loaded word. What does it mean?

and he also wrote:

> Usually what we exclude are "supernatural" forces.  However, the
> moment such forces are shown to exist, they become part of the natural
> world and are susceptible to scientific investigation.

Yes, and it sometimes even takes scientific investigation to show that
“supernatural” things exist they even exist. In addition I can name
one thing that we all know, from direct experience, exists, but it can
only be studied directly in a subjective manner. That is of course
consciousness, which is not necessarily supernatural. In fact, it
seems to me to be the most natural thing in the world.

The only thing that to me seems as if it might be supernatural is
human will. What I mean by that is that human will might not be
totally subject to all of the other natural laws but yet it may be
free to a degree to have an effect on nature. Though that sounds
impossible it is in line with the empirical evidence of my direct
experience. A complete scientific investigation could demonstrate that
we have absolutely no ability to choose whatsoever. Everything
including or choices is determined by the past. There are some
indications that this might be true, but other indications that it is
not. I suspect that we have a modicum of free will, therefore we are
supernatural to a slight degree. That is not a new age opinion, nor a
scientific one, but it is based on evidence and reason and of course
it could be wrong.


On Sep 18, 9:59 am, Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> <<Can material theories explain everything? I don't see how, but that
> doesn't mean they can't.>>
>
> "Material" is a loaded word. What does it mean?  At one time, "action
> at a distance" would not have been considered a material explanation,
> but now it is.  Gravity is considered material, as is any form of
> radiation, in addition to the undisputed inclusion of matter.
>
> Usually what we exclude are "supernatural" forces.  However, the
> moment such forces are shown to exist, they become part of the natural
> world and are susceptible to scientific investigation.  Do prayers
> work?  When do they work and when do they not?  Does it matter what
> the religion is of the prayer?  Whether they're male or female, old or
> young?  How big of a rock can we lift with prayer?
>
> So to say that anything we observe might have a non-material cause is
> rather meaningless.  I suspect the term is used mainly to exempt the
> beliefs from the possibility of refutation.
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