Mersenne Digest Wednesday, 10 March 1999 Volume 01 : Number 526
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Paul Derbyshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:42:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Mersenne: Missends...
At 04:03 PM 3/2/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Paul,
>
>I understand that there might be problems with the list server interface.
>I'd like to mention that some satisfaction might be had from helping to
>solve the problem. Since you understand the problem, you might be able to
>provide valuable insight to the maintainer to prevent it from happening
>again.
It's easy...the script just needs to set the Reply-To: to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
when broadcasting a list message to the subscribers. Otherwise users have 2
distasteful options:
1. Use "reply", change the address, occasionally forget, and
sometimes have to resend; thus they send a message to both the
list and some person from time to time.
2. Use "reply all", delete the extra address, occasionally forget,
and thus they send a message to both the list and some person
from time to time.
Either of those methods is tedious and error-prone. If you assume that all
human beings make mistakes from time to time, you deduce that the method in
use now *will* cause time and bandwidth wastage. Only under the unwarranted
and false assumption that all humans are perfect does the current system
make sense.
- --
.*. "Clouds are not spheres, mountains are not cones, coastlines are not
- -() < circles, and bark is not smooth, nor does lightning travel in a
`*' straight line." -------------------------------------------------
-- B. Mandelbrot |http://surf.to/pgd.net
_____________________ ____|________ Paul Derbyshire [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Programmer & Humanist|ICQ: 10423848|
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From: Paul Derbyshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:34:41 -0500
Subject: RE: Mersenne: Fabs.
At 07:36 AM 3/2/99 -0800, you wrote:
>[Excessive signature snipped 8-]
? It's an ordinary 6 lines. ???
>Eh? My first job after finishing my DPhil...
Your what?
>was microcoding a AMD-2900 series bit slice machine which had a 25ns
>(40MHz) clock. That was in 1983 and it was far from rocket science
>then.
A 40MHz chip in 1983? How come 40MHz personal computers weren't available
until the early 1990s? Was someone keeping the technology out of the hands
of the "peasants"??
>The good old 1970's Cray-1 had a 9ns (110MHz) clock if I remember correctly.
That's a supercomputer. Those don't count. :-)
- --
.*. "Clouds are not spheres, mountains are not cones, coastlines are not
- -() < circles, and bark is not smooth, nor does lightning travel in a
`*' straight line." -------------------------------------------------
-- B. Mandelbrot |http://surf.to/pgd.net
_____________________ ____|________ Paul Derbyshire [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Programmer & Humanist|ICQ: 10423848|
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------------------------------
From: Yvan Dutil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 08:27:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Mersenne: Re: Alien stuff
>To: Lars Soezueer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Mersenne: Re: Alien stuff
>Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 22:09:55 -0500
>From: "David J. Fred" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >From: Lars Soezueer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >There have been many attempts to construct such languages.
> >I am not aware of any of these projects to be
> >especially designed for communication with aliens.
>
>This is getting a little far afield, but...
>
>Chapter 26 of David Kahn's "The Codebreakers," revised and updated
>1996, touches on several proposed systems.
>
>One called Lincos was created by Dr. Hans Freudenthal of the
>University of Utrecht in the late '50s. Lincos stands for lingua
>cosmica. The language was fully fleshed-out in a book by
>Dr. Freudenthal called "Lincos: Design of a Language for Cosmic
>Intercourse," North-Holland Publishing, 1960.
>
>Another system was proposed by Lancelot Hogben in the early '50s at
>the request of the British Interplanetary Society. His was called
>Astraglossa and was discussed in "The Journal of the British
>Interplanetary Society," IX (November 1952).
>
>It is not entirely clear that either of these would actually be
>practical language systems as described, but it is evident that work
>has been done in this general direction.
I recently been involve in the conception of a message to be send to
extra-terrestrial on May 1 this year. We use the idea develloped by
Freudenthal. However, unlike Freudenthal we use some schema to
help.
By the way, we use prime. On the first page we have a list of prime
and we include the bigest we know: 2^3021377-1.
Yvan Dutil
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From: David L Nicol <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 10:22:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Mersenne: Re: Alien stuff
David J. Fred wrote:
> One called Lincos was created by Dr. Hans Freudenthal of the
> Another system, proposed by Lancelot Hogben, was called Astraglossa
And then of course there's Klingon, which apparently has an increasing
speakership worldwide at the moment, with some parents speaking it
exclusively in their homes around their children, for privacy one
supposes.
http://www.kli.org
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From: "=?iso-8859-2?q?J=F6rg_Thomsen?=" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 19:57:34 +0100
Subject: Re: Mersenne: biiiiig perfect number
On Sun, 07 Mar 1999 09:54:39 -0800, Spike Jones wrote:
With my 600 dpi printer it fits on 2 Pages with 1,5 point font Arial
and 1,2 point linespace, but you need a magniffying glass....
Joerg
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> If the printout has 80 characters per line and 60 lines per page,
>> you'll need 190 pages for 910000 decimal digits. You must have
>> big pages. Do you use four walls, floor, and ceiling?
>
>If one used readable fonts, then yes, one would need a couple hundred
>pages to print out the great one. If one uses two point font, then one
>gets several hundred characters per line and three hundred lines
>per page. Now of course, the pages look like grey goo. I have been
>asked why I have six pages of greyness on my wall. {8^D Those with
>*very* good eyes can resolve characters and even read them off of a
>two point printout from a good laser printer.
>
>I once had a great idea: I would express the Great Number in hex!
>Then I realized that I would get with 4 pages of tiny Fs. {8-[
>Not so interesting. But if some clever GIMPSer were to generate the
>perfect number that is (M37*(M37+1))/2 then express *that* number
>in hex, I would clear off a space on my office wall for it. {8-] Anyone
>accept the challenge?
>
>Thanks for the explanation of the LL Peter! spike
>
>________________________________________________________________
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>
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From: "Foghorn Leghorn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 14:19:59 EST
Subject: Mersenne: Building a hard-core Mersenne machine
If we were interested in building a bunch of real PCs out of existing
components for the sole purpose of GIMPS work, there are quite a few
corners that we could cut which would normally be unacceptable for a
someone's primary system. We could share a monochrome monitor among
several systems, give them plain-vanilla VGA cards and tiny hard drives,
and omit every irrelevant peripheral device. The most important
component is a fast processor.
But I hypothesize that there is one area (besides the processor) in
which a certain extravagance might be beneficial--the memory system. As
I understand it, Prime95 uses multi-megabyte arrays of data, and the
speed of access to them is a major limiting factor in performance. From
what I've heard, even a Xeon processor with a 2MB cache is not a huge
help.
And so I have an idea: would it be possible and feasible to build the
main memory from SRAM? I would expect this to give a bigger improvement
than most of the processor advances that are on the horizon, including
the Pentium III, and only 8 or 12 MB per system should be needed. Can
anyone comment on how much this would help, what it would cost, and
whether it is possible with existing motherboards?
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From: lrwiman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:44:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: re: Mersenne: VME claim
In a letter sent by Henk Stokhorst, he rellayed grand claims made by meganet
about a primetest in polynomial time. They are being way to secretive about
this. If they are afraid of anyone but clients using it, then patent it, but
as it stands this reeks of a scam.
>This endorsement was sent to you since you inquired about our mathematical
>proof. It should be sufficient for a mathematician to accept our claims.
> [commercialism removed]
>However, if your interest is purely scientific, this endorsement should be
>sufficient.
This sounds like they want us to have faith in Professor Jaime Milstein.
The closest thing in mathematics to faith is an axiom, so we can define the
Professor Jaime Milstein axiom. "Anything said by Professor Jaime Milstein, is
correct, no proof is nessiscary." Now if we can just get him to say a few words
on Fermat's Last theorem. Maybe this was the simple proof Fermat spoke of...
- -Lucas Wiman
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From: Jud McCranie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:46:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Mersenne: VME claim
At 09:36 AM 3/9/99 +0100, Henk Stokhorst wrote:
>
>With regards to the claim made by VME, Brian Beesley and I asked them to
>produce a factor of M(727). They did not come up with a factor.
It seems that he is claiming a primality test - not a factoring method.
>This endorsement was sent to you since you inquired about our
>mathematical
>proof. It should be sufficient for a mathematician to accept our claims.
That's unusual in math circles! An appeal to authority?
>and disclose the mathematics behind it to you. However, if your interest
>is
>purely scientific, this endorsement should be sufficient.
That's unusual. Don't allow us to see the proof - take someone's endorsement.
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From: "Paul Missman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:04:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Mersenne: Building a hard-core Mersenne machine
From: Foghorn Leghorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>But I hypothesize that there is one area (besides the processor) in
>which a certain extravagance might be beneficial--the memory system. As
>I understand it, Prime95 uses multi-megabyte arrays of data, and the
>speed of access to them is a major limiting factor in performance. From
>what I've heard, even a Xeon processor with a 2MB cache is not a huge
>help.
>
>And so I have an idea: would it be possible and feasible to build the
>main memory from SRAM? I would expect this to give a bigger improvement
>than most of the processor advances that are on the horizon, including
>the Pentium III, and only 8 or 12 MB per system should be needed. Can
>anyone comment on how much this would help, what it would cost, and
>whether it is possible with existing motherboards?
>
Prime95 currently looks to be using about 5 megs of memory. What I'm
going to try is to get a K7 when it comes out, with the standard 512k of
L2 cache, and the best initial memory speed I can find. When the price
of the K7 with 8 megs of on-chip L2 cache falls to a reasonable price,
I'm going to swap the 512k CPU out and put the 8 meg CPU in. With
8 megs available, the Prime95 program and the most used OS routines
should all fit in the L2 cache. That should give about the fastest
Prime95 speed available in a normal x86 machine.
On your question of using SRAM for all of system RAM, from what little I
know, I'd guess it would draw a lot of power, but it could work. I don't
know
if any of the motherboard chipsets are set up to drive SRAM as main
memory, so that might be a hurdle you'd have to get over.
Paul Missman
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From: "Vincent J. Mooney Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 22:32:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Mersenne: Milstein
Dr. Milstein has a background, i.e., a CV somewhere. Can someone please
provide it?
At 04:44 PM 3/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>In a letter sent by Henk Stokhorst, he rellayed grand claims made by meganet
>about a primetest in polynomial time. They are being way to secretive about
>this. If they are afraid of anyone but clients using it, then patent it, but
>as it stands this reeks of a scam.
>
>>This endorsement was sent to you since you inquired about our mathematical
>>proof. It should be sufficient for a mathematician to accept our claims.
>> [commercialism removed]
>>However, if your interest is purely scientific, this endorsement should be
>>sufficient.
>This sounds like they want us to have faith in Professor Jaime Milstein.
>The closest thing in mathematics to faith is an axiom, so we can define the
>Professor Jaime Milstein axiom. "Anything said by Professor Jaime Milstein, is
>correct, no proof is nessiscary." Now if we can just get him to say a few words
>on Fermat's Last theorem. Maybe this was the simple proof Fermat spoke of...
>-Lucas Wiman
>
>________________________________________________________________
>Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
>
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From: Spike Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 20:26:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Mersenne: Re: Alien stuff
Yvan Dutil wrote:
> I recently been involve in the conception of a message to be send to
> extra-terrestrial on May 1 this year. ...
>
> By the way, we use prime. On the first page we have a list of prime
> and we include the bigest we know: 2^3021377-1.
This reinforces an earlier notion I posted: that primes are the most
obvious thing to put in a messages bound for exocivilizations. In
retrospect, it is difficult to imagine such a message without reference
to prime numbers and/or mathematics as we know it.
Consider this: *any* civilization that is capable of receiving our
messages must have developed knowledge of math functions, and
knowledge of division implies knowledge of primes.
Without knowledge of math, humans could not have built anything
significantly more impressive than that which other animals
can build, such as bird nests, honeycombs, termite mounds, etc.
But humans, being the only earthly species to have discovered
mathematics, are also the only species that can send signals
from the home planet, and are the only species in position to
receive same from outside.
All this reinforces the notion that we GIMPSers are working
on something that *really matters* on the planetary scale,
as well as the cosmic. spike
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From: "John R Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:26:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Mersenne: Building a hard-core Mersenne machine
> On your question of using SRAM for all of system RAM, from what little I
> know, I'd guess it would draw a lot of power, but it could work. I don't
> know
> if any of the motherboard chipsets are set up to drive SRAM as main
> memory, so that might be a hurdle you'd have to get over.
they aren't. It would require a completely custom host bus controller. On
the standard chipsets, this is integrated along with the host-to-PCI bridge,
so your custom controller would have to duplicate this functionality too.
And, its unclear how much gain this might have over SDRAM. Typical 100Mhz bus
operation on pentium-II 350MHz and up is like 5-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 clocks for a 8
cycle by 8 byte burst, or 14 clocks total per 64 bytes. Now, far as I know,
the fastest the pentium-II bus can go is 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 or 9 clocks per 64
bytes. To achieve this, the static ram would have to have cycle times well
under 10nS and be implemented in a fully synchronous design (one bus driver's
worth of delay here could account for 5nS or more out of the 10nS available
cycle!). And, this 14->9 speedup will only occur on level-2 cache miss cycles
and write cycles.
To achieve the 8 byte wide bus, you'd probably use 8 1Mx8 SRAMs for a total of
8MBytes. Hmm. 8Mbit density SRAMs appear to come in 256K x 32bit, so we'd
instead need 4 banks of them which would greatly complicate the design. These
parts come in speeds from 5nS to 10nS so they are fast enough. They are
synchronous burst SRAM's so at least they would simplify the design by
eliminating external address counters. Power supply currents are from 250 to
500mA at 3.3V per chip, so our design will require 8 of these or 2 to 4 amps
total, 7 to 15 watts. It appears in a carefully controlled synchronous
design, they are capable of address->data in 2 clocks, then up to 3 more
cycles at one clock each, this looks like we'll have to interleave two banks
to achieve the peak 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 timing using the 10nS (100MHz) parts...
Worse, it appears that 8Mbit 100MHz+ synchronous SRAM is just entering
production. These parts are gonna be $$$$$, so we might have to build it from
8 banks of 2 each 128kx32 SRAMs (which are 4Mbit each).
Nope, I don't see this as practical at all.
- -jrp
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From: "John R Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:47:34 -0800
Subject: Re: Mersenne: Milstein
> Dr. Milstein has a background, i.e., a CV somewhere. Can someone please
> provide it?
I did some poking around the web on his name, found only one thing...
Various bibliographical references to a couple of journal papers
Moeller Thomas L., Milstein Jaime, Generalized Algebraic Structures for the
Representation of Discrete Systems, Linear Algebra And Its Applications
(274)1-3 (1998) pp. 161-191
Moeller Thomas L., Milstein Jaime, Algebraic Representations for Finite-State
Machines. II. Module Formulation, Linear Algebra And Its Applications (247)1-3
(1996) pp. 133-150
Moeller Thomas L., Milstein Jaime, Algebraic Representations for Finite-State
Machines. I. Monoid-Ring Formulation, Linear Algebra And Its Applications
(239)1-3 (1996) pp. 109-126
unluckily, the one site that had abstracts required an account issued to a
subscribing institution.
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From: "Vincent J. Mooney Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 02:15:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Mersenne: Milstein
I tentatively conclude he is a recent Ph.D.
There are paper references to Ph.D.'s in library records of graduates,
Ph.D.'s awarded, I think. Can someone in a university setting check on this?
Thank you, John R. Pierce, for your assistance so far.
Using http://www.switchboard.com/ I found
Milstein, Dr Jaime Los Angeles, CA 90016 (310)398-1139
and a second entry that has a different phone number
Milstein, Dr Jaime Los Angeles, CA 90016 (310)398-8449
Maybe someone in the local 310 area can call and make inquiries.
At 09:47 PM 3/9/99 -0800, you wrote:
>> Dr. Milstein has a background, i.e., a CV somewhere. Can someone please
>> provide it?
>
>I did some poking around the web on his name, found only one thing...
>
>Various bibliographical references to a couple of journal papers
>
>Moeller Thomas L., Milstein Jaime, Generalized Algebraic Structures for the
>Representation of Discrete Systems, Linear Algebra And Its Applications
>(274)1-3 (1998) pp. 161-191
>
>Moeller Thomas L., Milstein Jaime, Algebraic Representations for Finite-State
>Machines. II. Module Formulation, Linear Algebra And Its Applications (247)1-3
>(1996) pp. 133-150
>
>Moeller Thomas L., Milstein Jaime, Algebraic Representations for Finite-State
>Machines. I. Monoid-Ring Formulation, Linear Algebra And Its Applications
>(239)1-3 (1996) pp. 109-126
>
>unluckily, the one site that had abstracts required an account issued to a
>subscribing institution.
>
>________________________________________________________________
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>
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From: "Peter Tichy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:45:00 +0100
Subject: SV: Mersenne: Milstein
I ran a search using Copernic, and this is what came out of it;
http://www.aero.org/news/current/topAwards.html
http://lps-server.gsfc.nasa.gov/!Studies/Techinal_Studies.html
Best regards
Peter Tichy
SW developer
Eltek Fire&Safety
phone: + 47 32 20 33 25
fax: + 47 32 20 31 20
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.eltek.no
-----Opprinnelig melding-----
Fra: John R Pierce
Sendt: 10. mars 1999 06:47
Til: PETI; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Emne: Re: Mersenne: Milstein
> Dr. Milstein has a background, i.e., a CV somewhere. Can someone
please
> provide it?
I did some poking around the web on his name, found only one thing...
Various bibliographical references to a couple of journal papers
Moeller Thomas L., Milstein Jaime, Generalized Algebraic Structures for
the
Representation of Discrete Systems, Linear Algebra And Its Applications
(274)1-3 (1998) pp. 161-191
Moeller Thomas L., Milstein Jaime, Algebraic Representations for
Finite-State
Machines. II. Module Formulation, Linear Algebra And Its Applications
(247)1-3
(1996) pp. 133-150
Moeller Thomas L., Milstein Jaime, Algebraic Representations for
Finite-State
Machines. I. Monoid-Ring Formulation, Linear Algebra And Its Applications
(239)1-3 (1996) pp. 109-126
unluckily, the one site that had abstracts required an account issued to
a
subscribing institution.
________________________________________________________________
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End of Mersenne Digest V1 #526
******************************
