Mersenne Digest Sunday, March 25 2001 Volume 01 : Number 832 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:42:17 -0500 From: Nathan Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Mersenne: First illegal prime? - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:22:11 -0000, Brian Beesley wrote: >On 20 Mar 2001, at 13:35, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (Phil Carmody's 'illegal prime') >I take it "illegal" means that the particular number contains a >representation in some form of language for a computer program that >does something which transgresses the law. In this case, cracks >DeCSS. <nitpick> The embedded program is a version of DeCSS, a program for cracking the CSS encryption scheme. </nitpick> Slashdot takes a particular interest in this program because many of their editors and members believe that CSS is an infringment of civil rights - specifically, their right to play DVDs on the operating system of their choice. >Could I point out that all computer programs and databases can be >represented as simply large integers, and that, if the >representation of this particular program were therefore illegal, I >could claim >copyright of all existing and future software for all digitally >encoded systems since I can demonstrate a method of generating every > possible program, video, music track, ... simply by counting? The >best defence to my copyright claim might be that the expansion of pi > probably contains every possible finite length sequence of digits, >whatever rational base you care to use to make the expansion, and >that nobody "owns" pi. Of course, (in theory) that could be seen as a disproof of all copyright - there's nothing that does not already exist. Of course, thinking of the number of possible English phrases - never mind books, or images - is a fairly easy way to come up with numbers that dwarf the Mersennes. >Now I know the law's pretty darned silly, especially when it comes >to deep abstract concepts like this, but really I think that it's >not >the integer itself which would be illegal, but its _deliberate_ use >as a mechanism to crack DeCSS. _If_ cracking DeCSS is indeed >illegal. Here, at least, it is, due to a particularly idiotic law known as the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, which essentially says that evading copy-protection measures is itself a crime - regardless of whether copyright is actually broken. I might note that it's impossible to encrypt something so it cannot be copied exactly; even now, it is very common for pirate DVD manufacturers to simply copy the original disc byte for byte, without even needing to crack the encryption. >IMHO DeCSS is so badly broken that its proponents might as well give > up now, but that's a different story. Unfortunately for them, that 40-bit encryption is now hard-coded into every DVD player; they can no more easily change it than they can suddenly start selling videotapes for the Betamax VCR. >Regards >Brian Beesley Nathan Russell - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com> iQA/AwUBOrfq1IvPBwdDF2xqEQKDdgCeJhTSRtZD3bW+im46//1Ye7hkmCcAoL4n PFTvO4XgT1LaUfvTuSG+RBP4 =MQax - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:58:17 -0600 From: "David L. Nicol" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Mersenne: First illegal prime? Nathan Russell wrote: > I might note that it's impossible to encrypt something so it cannot > be copied exactly; even now, it is very common for pirate DVD > manufacturers to simply copy the original disc byte for byte, without > even needing to crack the encryption. I guess "grey bits" never caught on. "Grey bits" were a copy-protection mechanism in which parts of the original media a program is distributed on were encoded poorly, so that repeated reads of the grey sections would produce different results. Before running, the program would try to read the grey section until something came up different. _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:09:44 +0100 From: "Jean Flinois" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Mersenne: First illegal prime? > Nathan Russell wrote: > > > I might note that it's impossible to encrypt something so it cannot > > be copied exactly; even now, it is very common for pirate DVD > > manufacturers to simply copy the original disc byte for byte, without > > even needing to crack the encryption. > > I guess "grey bits" never caught on. "Grey bits" were a copy-protection > mechanism in which parts of the original media a program is distributed on > were encoded poorly, so that repeated reads of the grey sections would > produce different results. Before running, the program would try to read > the grey section until something came up different. So it wouldn't work if played on an excellent high signal-to-noise ratio reader ? :-) Jean Flinois <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> V-Technologies, Savennières tél +33 (0)2 4172 1077 _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:12:49 -0000 From: "Brian J. Beesley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Mersenne: First illegal prime? On 20 Mar 2001, at 18:42, Nathan Russell wrote: > <nitpick> The embedded program is a version of DeCSS, a program for > cracking the CSS encryption scheme. </nitpick> Oops, my mistake, sorry! Forgive my ignorance, I'm not much interested in movies... > > Slashdot takes a particular interest in this program because many of > their editors and members believe that CSS is an infringment of civil > rights - specifically, their right to play DVDs on the operating > system of their choice. And I agree. Totally. I thought there was also a problem that DVD movies are offered later and at higher prices in some markets, therefore CSS is seen as an infringement of consumer's rights to buy a product in the cheapest market. > > Of course, (in theory) that could be seen as a disproof of all > copyright - there's nothing that does not already exist. Of course, > thinking of the number of possible English phrases - never mind books, > or images - is a fairly easy way to come up with numbers that dwarf > the Mersennes. Nevertheless I have demonstrated a (for the time being, impractical - but roll on quantum computing) _purely mechanical_ way of generating all that content; this nullifies the whole idea of "intellectual property", and the legal concept of copyright that goes with it. > > Here, at least, it is, due to a particularly idiotic law known as the > Digital Millenium Copyright Act, which essentially says that evading > copy-protection measures is itself a crime - regardless of whether > copyright is actually broken. > > I might note that it's impossible to encrypt something so it cannot be > copied exactly; even now, it is very common for pirate DVD > manufacturers to simply copy the original disc byte for byte, without > even needing to crack the encryption. I guess everyone who has a copy of the "copy" utility on their DOS/Windows system, or "cp" on a linux box, had better pack their toothbrush. See you all in jail! > > Unfortunately for them, that 40-bit encryption is now hard-coded into > every DVD player; they can no more easily change it than they can > suddenly start selling videotapes for the Betamax VCR. Tough. That's _their_ problem, not ours. The fact is that (for better or for worse) the DeCSS cat is well and truly out of the bag, and I don't see how lawyers are going to be able to persuade it to get back in. Regards Brian Beesley _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:16:43 -0800 (PST) From: John R Pierce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Mersenne: phew, one way to get cycles... heh, a friend just ran this by me for my amusement, seems a 3rd friend has juno.com as heir ISP and juno just revised their service agreement, embeeded in it was the following little nugget... 2.5. You expressly permit and authorize Juno to (i) download to your computer one or more pieces of software (the "Computational Software") designed to perform computations, which may be unrelated to the operation of the Service, on behalf of Juno (or on behalf of such third parties as may be authorized by Juno, subject to the Privacy Statement), (ii) run the Computational Software on your computer to perform and store the results of such computations, and (iii) upload such results to Juno's central computers during a subsequent connection, whether initiated by you in the course of using the Service or by the Computational Software as further described below. In connection with downloading and running the Computational Software, Juno may require you to leave your computer turned on at all times, and may replace the "screen saver" software that runs on your computer while the computer is turned on but you are not using it. The screen saver software installed by Juno, which may display advertisements or other images chosen by Juno, is an integral part of the Computational Software and you agree not to take any action to disable or interfere with the operation of either the screen saver software or any other component of the Computational Software. Juno may set different requirements for different subscribers with respect to the Computational Software (including without limitation whether use of the Computational Software is required and the volume of computations required to be performed) depending on service level or other factors we determine. You agree that, as between you and Juno, you shall be responsible for any costs or expenses resulting from the continuous operation of your computer, including without limitation any associated charges for electricity, and that you shall have sole responsibility for any maintenance or technical issues that might result from such continuous operation. You agree that, as between you and Juno, Juno shall have sole rights to the results of any computations performed by the Computational Software, including without limitation any revenues or intellectual property generated directly or indirectly as a result of such computations, without further compensation to you. If your usage of the Service is infrequent, Juno's ability to obtain the results of completed computations may be impaired. Consequently, you expressly permit and authorize Juno to initiate a telephone connection from your computer to Juno's central computers using a dial-in telephone number you have previously selected for accessing the Service; Juno agrees that it shall exercise such right only to the extent necessary, as determined in Juno's sole discretion, to upload the results of completed computations to Juno in a timely fashion; and you agree that, as between you and Juno, you shall be responsible for any costs and expenses (including without limitation any applicable telephone charges) resulting from the foregoing.Any software, data, or other materials downloaded to your computer in connection with the activities described in this Section 2.5 will not be used to collect personal Identifier Information (as defined in the Privacy Statement) from your computer and will comply with Juno's privacy policies, as reflected in the Privacy Statement. You agree that you will not attempt to reverse engineer any such software, data, or other materials or transfer or disclose any such software, data, or other materials, or the results of any such computations, to any third party. You acknowledge that your compliance with the requirements of this Section 2.5 may be considered by Juno to be an inseparable part of the Service, and that any interference with the operation of the Computational Software (including, but not limited to, any failure to leave your computer turned on to whatever extent Juno requires of subscribers at your service level) may result in termination or limitation of your use of the Service. You acknowledge that Section 6 of this Agreement shall expressly apply to the activities described in this Section 2.5. damn. whatta way to get more CPU cycles, eh? - -jrp _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:57:13 +0100 From: "Steinar H. Gunderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Mersenne: Re: phew, one way to get cycles... On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:16:43AM -0800, John R Pierce wrote: >heh, a friend just ran this by me for my amusement, seems a >3rd friend has juno.com as heir ISP and juno just revised >their service agreement, embeeded in it was the following little >nugget... > >[...] > >damn. whatta way to get more CPU cycles, eh? Now, I wonder what this juno.com _is_... and how they possibly could get anybody to accept that. Looking at their pages, they look like an ISP -- but how could possibly their Internet connection be `free' when you're actually _forced_ to keep your computer on at all times, and authorize their software to dial up to the Internet... at YOUR cost? /* Steinar */ - -- Homepage: http://members.xoom.com/sneeze/ _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:02:25 -0500 From: Nathan Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Mersenne: Re: phew, one way to get cycles... - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:57:13 +0100, Steiner wrote: >Now, I wonder what this juno.com _is_... and how they possibly could >get anybody to accept that. Looking at their pages, they look like >an ISP -- but how could possibly their Internet connection be `free' >when you're actually _forced_ to keep your computer on at all times, >and authorize their software to dial up to the Internet... at YOUR >cost? Juno is a free adware ISP. Naturally, it's difficult for an ISP to cope with the cost of providing unlimited dialup access in exchange for showing ads (although such accounts are usually at only 28K). Thus, it appears Juno is starting this computing project to help cope with their costs. The problem is that it appears they haven't gone out of their way to make their customers aware of that. I wonder how the authorities in California will look at an ISP requiring customers to run their computers 24/7. Nathan - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com> iQA/AwUBOrkI0IvPBwdDF2xqEQJFogCgvNt+wDCTwYOVWEUtiXfdlxnWMAEAoKT3 E6W5D0hH56rUgqXlJWo+sevN =vxFm - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:56:56 -0800 From: Kevin Sexton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Mersenne: Re: phew, one way to get cycles... This came out weeks ago, but juno hasn't actually started any projects. One problem for them will be finding a project that will pay for the cpu time. If they actually try to enforce the keep computer on 24/7 part, I think most people will leave them. _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:10:06 -0000 From: "Brian J. Beesley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Mersenne: First illegal prime? <color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>On 21 Mar 2001, at 12:09, Jean Flinois wrote: <color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> > I guess "grey bits" never caught on. "Grey bits" were a > > copy-protection mechanism in which parts of the original media a > > program is distributed on were encoded poorly, so that repeated > > reads of the grey sections would produce different results. Before > > running, the program would try to read the grey section until > > something came up different. > > So it wouldn't work if played on an excellent high signal-to-noise > ratio reader ? :-) </color>The transducer that reads the data from the media has a signal-to- noise ratio (digitally, this means an error rate) which is independent of the S/N ratio of the reproduced signal. Take a conventional silver CD. If you were to make the pits containing the "grey data" extra small, sometimes you'd read them correctly and sometimes you wouldn't. As the "grey data" is not part of the signal reproduced, the user application isn't aware that they're not being read consistently. A copier running at user application level would thus make an identifiably imperfect copy, though the actual user data content would be accurately reproduced. The "grey data" bits would have to be interleaved with normal data so as to avoid loss of tracking. This is an example of the sort of "copy protection" I find acceptable, because I can make as many perfect copies as I like for my own use; nonetheless the copies can be identified as such, for the purposes of prosecuting anyone who happens to be trading them in place of genuine original pressings. <nofill> Regards Brian Beesley _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:10:06 -0000 From: "Brian J. Beesley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Mersenne: Re: phew, one way to get cycles... On 21 Mar 2001, at 19:57, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote: > Now, I wonder what this juno.com _is_... and how they possibly could > get anybody to accept that. Looking at their pages, they look like an > ISP -- but how could possibly their Internet connection be `free' when > you're actually _forced_ to keep your computer on at all times, and > authorize their software to dial up to the Internet... at YOUR cost? It's absolutely amazing what you can get people to do by using the magic word FREE. Here in the UK there are a large number of "free" ISPs who demand that you change to _their_ telephone service and make a minimum amount of calls per month, or force you to receive advertising material provided by them & transmitted across the phone line at your expense, or various other scams. Just remember, there's no such thing as a FREE lunch. My guess is that Juno are making a killing on the phone access and are selling your "spare" CPU cycles to some service or other. The only advice I can offer to anyone who is tempted by Juno's generous (whatever the smiley for extreme irony is should be inserted here) offer is to run Prime95 at a priority of 5 or 6, i.e. intermediate between "normal" and "screensaver", thereby denying CPU cycles to their project. Or simply connect using a 386 SX 16 as a local gateway & let Juno have use of that CPU only :) Regards Brian Beesley _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:52:17 EST From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Mersenne: Mlucas for small exponents For Mlucas users who (as I did) grabbed some of the small exponents < 4.51M which George put on the server for triple-checking yesterday, note that you'll want to add a line for 224K FFT length to your mlucas.cfg file. For this runlength, this available FFT radix sets are indexed 0-4; 0 works best on my Alpha ev4, whereas 2 is best on my ev56. So, e.g. on the ev56, my .cfg file now looks like .. # 224 2 # <=== new runlength and radix set index 256 ... Cheers, - -Ernst _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:38:02 -0600 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Mersenne: First illegal prime? At 12:58 20/03/2001 -0600, David L. Nicol wrote: >Nathan Russell wrote: > > > I might note that it's impossible to encrypt something so it cannot > > be copied exactly; even now, it is very common for pirate DVD > > manufacturers to simply copy the original disc byte for byte, without > > even needing to crack the encryption. > >I guess "grey bits" never caught on. "Grey bits" were a copy-protection >mechanism in which parts of the original media a program is distributed on >were encoded poorly, so that repeated reads of the grey sections would >produce different results. Before running, the program would try to read >the grey section until something came up different. Illegally encoded sectors are a common feature of current CD protection schemes. I do not know whether they use "grey" bits, but they sure make it impossible to play SOME (legally bought) games on SOME CD players. (my favourite was the Red Alert CD that would play fine in the computer's CD player, but would crash the machine if inserted in the same computer's DVD player.....not pleasant.) - -- Harald Tveit Alvestrand, [EMAIL PROTECTED] +47 41 44 29 94 Personal email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:26:02 EST From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Mersenne: SunBlade user ALERT To anyone running Mlucas on one of the new SunBlade workstations: Bill Rea writes: << I've had a call from Sun to say that SunBlades manufactured before March 14 have a "bug" in the prefetch pipeline which, under very rare circumstances, can give incorrect floating point results. They have produced a "patch" which turns off the prefetch pipeline. I've switched over to using the non-prefetch Mlucas version. The notice from Sun did not include a non-disclosure clause so I assume they are willing for this information to be made known publicly. Certainly any gimpsters should switch to the non-prefetch Mlucas until the patch is installed on their systems. After that they should continue to use the non-prefetch version as the prefetching is disabled. I've reported a couple of results and have four more which could potentially be affected by the bug. Maybe George would like to schedule early double checks on these as if we wait for the double checking to reach them that could be a few years away. >> Note that both a prefetch-enabled and non-prefetch binary are included in the Mlucas 2.7b tarball, so you simply need to switch to the non-prefetch binary which you already have. You'll probably see a bit of a performance hit, which is quite annoying. Bill, could you send George the exponents you ran (at lest partway) using prefetch on your Sunblade, so he can schedule double-checks ASAP? If we get statistics on a decent number of them, perhaps we can better decide whether the risk of running into the prefetch bug is worth the increased throughput of running with prefetch enabled. On an unrelated issue, Bill writes: << Some of these are giving roundoff errors as we approach the limit of what 640K FFT will handle, I hope they go to completion. Here's one set of roundoff warnings so far:- M12542347 Roundoff warning on iteration 188766 maxerr = 0.406250000000 M12542347 Roundoff warning on iteration 288378 maxerr = 0.437500000000 M12542347 Roundoff warning on iteration 613044 maxerr = 0.406250000000 M12542347 Roundoff warning on iteration 722136 maxerr = 0.406250000000 M12542347 Roundoff warning on iteration 1106225 maxerr = 0.406250000000 M12542347 Roundoff warning on iteration 1111869 maxerr = 0.406250000000 M12542347 Roundoff warning on iteration 1190077 maxerr = 0.406250000000 >> Errors of 0.40625 should be fine, assuming you're not getting oodles of them. 0.4375 is a bit more worrisome, but if you only get a few you should be OK, at least based on my past experience with the program. For you to get an error of .4375 which is really 0.6625 aliased to 0.4375 by the NINT function, you'd also expect to see lots of intermediate errors of 0.500, assuming errors are distributed reasonably smoothly (which is of course also questionable in the discrete world.) If a 0.500 error is detected, the program will halt that run and proceed to the next exponent in the worktodo.ini file, but your savefiles from the aborted run will still be OK. In that event, you should (at your earliest convenience) halt the program, restore the exponent of the aborted run to the top of the .ini file, and switch to a different radix set index in the mlucas.cfg file in an attempt to get past the troublesome iteration. (If that succeeds, you can then switch the .cfg file back to the earlier radix set, which presumably was giving the best runtimes on your machine.) It's a bit of a manual kludge, but hopefully won't occur very often. (And if the kludge seems to be an effective one, I'll probably have the code do it automatically in the next release.) - -Ernst _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:16:38 +0200 From: mohk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Mersenne: Getting new GIMPSers Hmm ... my comp has NO idle time anymore (8 At 10:08 PM 3/11/2002, you wrote: >see http://www.freechess.org/ for a way to attract GIMPS members. > >Freechess.org RC5 cracking team > >Is your computer doing all it can? Do you have idle CPU cycles laying >around that aren't doing anything for you? Put those extra cycles to work! >Join the Freechess.Org RC5 cracking team! Team Freechess.Org is currently >participating in the RC5 cracking effort hosted by distributed.net. For >more information on the key cracking effort you are invited to vist >http://www.distributed.net. This site has all the information on the >cracking effort as well as the client you will need to join the team. > >If team Freechess.Org wins, > >- $6,000 US will go to a charity selected by the vote of all participants >("The Gutenberg Project" is currently leading here), >- $2,000 US will go to distributed.net for hosting the effort, >- $1,000 US will go to the single person who finds the correct key (This >could be you!), and finally >- $1,000 US will go to FICS to use as they see fit. > >If you would like to see how our team is currently doing, please visit >http://rc5stats.distributed.net/rc5-64/tmsummary.php3?team=4264. >Team Freechess.Org looks forward to your participation! If you have any >further questions, please send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm >Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers _________________________________________________________________________ Unsubscribe & list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm Mersenne Prime FAQ -- http://www.tasam.com/~lrwiman/FAQ-mers ------------------------------ End of Mersenne Digest V1 #832 ******************************
