Hi Faith, thanks for starting the discussion, we had a bit of an internal chat here at Igalia to see where we all stand on this and I am sharing some initial thoughts/questions below:
El vie, 19-01-2024 a las 11:01 -0600, Faith Ekstrand escribió: > Yeah, this one's gonna hit Phoronix... > > When we started writing Vulkan drivers back in the day, there was > this > notion that Vulkan was a low-level API that directly targets > hardware. > Vulkan drivers were these super thin things that just blasted packets > straight into the hardware. What little code was common was small and > pretty easy to just copy+paste around. It was a nice thought... > > What's happened in the intervening 8 years is that Vulkan has grown. > A lot. > > We already have several places where we're doing significant > layering. > It started with sharing the WSI code and some Python for generating > dispatch tables. Later we added common synchronization code and a few > vkFoo2 wrappers. Then render passes and... > > https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/merge_requests/27024 > > That's been my project the last couple weeks: A common VkPipeline > implementation built on top of an ESO-like interface. The big > deviation this MR makes from prior art is that I make no attempt at > pretending it's a layered implementation. The vtable for shader > objects looks like ESO but takes its own path when it's useful to do > so. For instance, shader creation always consumes NIR and a handful > of > lowering passes are run for you. It's no st_glsl_to_nir but it is a > bit opinionated. Also, a few of the bits that are missing from ESO > such as robustness have been added to the interface. > > In my mind, this marks a pretty fundamental shift in how the Vulkan > runtime works, at least in my mind. Previously, everything was > designed to be a toolbox where you can kind of pick and choose what > you want to use. Also, everything at least tried to act like a layer > where you still implemented Vulkan but you could leave out bits like > render passes if you implemented the new thing and were okay with the > layer. With the ESO code, you implement something that isn't Vulkan > entrypoints and the actual entrypoints live in the runtime. This lets > us expand and adjust the interface as needed for our purposes as well > as sanitize certain things even in the modern API. > > The result is that NVK is starting to feel like a gallium driver. 🙃 > > So here's the question: do we like this? Do we want to push in this > direction? Should we start making more things work more this way? I'm > not looking for MRs just yet nor do I have more reworks directly > planned. I'm more looking for thoughts and opinions as to how the > various Vulkan driver teams feel about this. We'll leave the detailed > planning for the Mesa issue tracker. > > It's worth noting that, even though I said we've tried to keep things > layerish, there are other parts of the runtime that look like this. > The synchronization code is a good example. The vk_sync interface is > pretty significantly different from the Vulkan objects it's used to > implement. That's worked out pretty well, IMO. With as complicated as > something like pipelines or synchronization are, trying to keep the > illusion of a layer just isn't practical. > > So, do we like this? Should we be pushing more towards drivers being > a > backed of the runtime instead of a user of it? > > Now, before anyone asks, no, I don't really want to build a multi-API > abstraction with a Vulkan state tracker. If we were doing this 5 > years > ago and Zink didn't already exist, one might be able to make an > argument for pushing in that direction. However, that would add a > huge > amount of weight to the project and make it even harder to develop > the > runtime than it already is and for little benefit at this point. > > Here's a few other constraints on what I'm thinking: > > 1. I want it to still be possible for drivers to implement an > extension without piles of runtime plumbing or even bypass the > runtime > on occasion as needed. > > 2. I don't want to recreate the gallium cap disaster drivers should > know exactly what they're advertising. We may want to have some > internal features or properties that are used by the runtime to make > decisions but they'll be in addition to the features and properties > in > Vulkan. > > 3. We've got some meta stuff already but we probably want more. > However, I don't want to force meta on folks who don't want it. > > The big thing here is that if we do this, I'm going to need help. I'm > happy to do a lot of the architectural work but drivers are going to > have to keep up with the changes and I can't take on the burden of > moving 8 different drivers forward. I can answer questions and maybe > help out a bit but the refactoring is going to be too much for one > person, even if that person is me. > > Thoughts? We think it is fine if the Vulkan runtime implements its own internal API that doesn't match Vulkan's. If we are going down this path however we really want to make sure we have good documentation for it so it is clear how all that works without having to figure things out by looking at the code. For existing drivers we think it is a bit less clear whether the effort required to port is going to be worth it. If you end up having to throw away a lot of what you currently have that already works and in some cases might even be optimal for your platform it may be a hard ask. What are your thoughts on this? How much adoption would you be looking for from existing drivers? As new features are added to the runtime, we understand some of them could have dependencies on other features, building on top of them, requiring drivers to adopt more of the common vulkan runtime to continue benefiting from additional features, is that how you see this or would you still expect many runtime features to still be independent from each other to facilitate driver opt-in on a need-by-need basis? Iago
