Many thanks, Gino, for your efforts. I think we have a good intermediate 
result now, which, however, can still be improved (manually). I will try to 
eliminate the usage of ax-13 in my Mathbox and the following theorems of 
main:


   - REAL AND COMPLEX NUMBERS: 2 theorems (~brfi1indALT and ~nfsum)
   - GRAPH THEORY: 1 theorem (~frgrwopreglem5ALT) 

Alexander

[email protected] schrieb am Samstag, 20. April 2024 um 21:57:57 UTC+2:

> I announce the successful completion of the project. As of April 20, 2024, 
> there are a total of 589 theorems that depend on ax-13, which is better 
> than forecasted in this mailing list (back in January I anticipated 819 
> theorems left).
>
> Among these 589 theorems, there are 50 "OLD" proofs in main, which will be 
> deleted during the year. Additionally, there are 59 "ALT" theorems which 
> may contain candidates for ax-13 removal (I generally skipped theorems with 
> a "proof modification is discouraged" tag except for a few occurrences).
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Below I show a summary of the locations of those 589 theorems. 400 of them 
> are in main, and 189 in mathboxes:
>
> * Axiom scheme ax-13 (Quantified Equality): 186 theorems
>
> * Alternate definition of substitution: 30 theorems (it has recently been 
> proposed to delete this section 
> https://github.com/metamath/set.mm/pull/3924#pullrequestreview-2007403060)
>
> * Uniqueness and unique existence: 27 theorems
>
> * Intuitionistic logic: 6 theorems
>
> * ZF Set Theory - start with the Axiom of Extensionality: 90 theorems
>
> * ZF Set Theory - add the Axiom of Power Sets: 24 theorems
>
> * ZF Set Theory - add the Axiom of Union: 2 theorems (~fsplitOLD and 
> ~nfixp)
>
> * ZFC Axioms with no distinct variable requirements: 31 theorems
>
> * REAL AND COMPLEX NUMBERS: 2 theorems (~brfi1indALT and ~nfsum)
>
> * BASIC ALGEBRAIC STRUCTURES: 1 theorem (~cygablOLD)
>
> * GRAPH THEORY: 1 theorem (~frgrwopreglem5ALT)
>
> -----------------END OF MAIN-------------------
>
> * Mathbox for Thierry Arnoux: 1 theorem (~opreu2reuALT)
>
> * Mathbox for Jonathan Ben-Naim: 3 theorems
>
> * Mathbox for Scott Fenton: 14 theorems
>
> * Mathbox for Anthony Hart: 1 theorem (~subsym1)
>
> * Mathbox for BJ: 39 theorems
>
> * Mathbox for Wolf Lammen: 53 theorems
>
> * Mathbox for Giovanni Mascellani: 8 theorems
>
> * Mathbox for Peter Mazsa: 1 theorem (~brabidga)
>
> * Mathbox for Norm Megill: 15 theorems
>
> * Mathbox for Stefan O'Rear: 4 theorems (all *OLD)
>
> * Mathbox for Richard Penner: 5 theorems
>
> * Mathbox for Rohan Ridenour: 3 theorems
>
> * Mathbox for Andrew Salmon: 6 theorems
>
> * Mathbox for Alan Sare: 24 theorems (many of these have a "proof 
> modification" discouragement tag)
>
> * Mathbox for Glauco Siliprandi: 2 theorems
>
> * Mathbox for Alexander van der Vekens: 8 theorems
>
> * Mathbox for Emmett Weisz: 2 theorems
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> All theorems in main depending on ax-13 are discouraged, which provides 
> decent confidence that use of this axiom won't rise inadvertently. However 
> this mechanism is not perfect, it can be circumvented by moving a theorem 
> using ax-13 from a mathbox to main (not all theorems in mathboxes have a 
> discouragement tag). Therefore I reccommend to manually check ax-13 usage, 
> say, once a year.
>
> I attached a file containing the full list of theorems utilizing ax-13, 
> categorized by the respective chapters. You can use it to check out whether 
> you can find further improvements in your own mathbox or in main.
>
> Il giorno martedì 12 marzo 2024 alle 16:05:59 UTC+1 [email protected] ha 
> scritto:
>
>> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 11:36 AM Jim Kingdon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> If this is just a hypothetical question I guess we don't really need to 
>>> come up with a definitive answer, but I will say that if we want to keep 
>>> some of our other values (like preferring short proofs), we'd end up 
>>> with a lot of ALT theorems or other ways in which there is a classical 
>>> proof, there is an intuitionistic proof, and the intuitionistic proof is 
>>> much longer.
>>
>>
>> We already have a caveat in the proof shortening rules for this. We want 
>> shorter proofs but *only* assuming it doesn't take the theorem out of a 
>> "subsystem of interest". For the most part that means that proof searches 
>> using MINIMIZE will add /NO_NEW_AXIOMS to ensure that intuitionistic proofs 
>> stay intuitionistic. So in the variation you are talking about I would 
>> expect there to only be an intuitionistic proof, and the classical proof 
>> (if the statement is different) would be the shorter of "do the proof 
>> directly" and "apply the intuitionistic version and remove the unnecessary 
>> assumptions", which probably would end up with the latter most of the time.
>>  
>>
>>> Proof length aside, I guess I'm just not sure that set.mm would read 
>>> very nicely if it needed to concern itself with decidability, apartness, 
>>> additional conditions on things like supremums and convergence, etc. Not 
>>> to mention topology which beyond a certain point falls apart unless you 
>>> switch from point-set topology to locales (or so I read, iset.mm hasn't 
>>> really gotten that far yet).
>>>
>>
>> This is a fair criticism. For those areas like topology where it's still 
>> unclear how to intuitionize it, the whole thing would simply be classical. 
>> But I would expect a cover-to-cover reader of set.mm to already know 
>> that it is trying to simultaneously cover intuitionistic and classical 
>> logic, and the abstractions that work in intuitionistic logic are also 
>> interesting in their own way. I know I had to search far and wide for 
>> proofs about measure theory in the absence of the axiom of choice (thanks 
>> Fremlin!) so it wouldn't be the first time for proofs that go out of their 
>> way to avoid some axiom.
>>  
>>
>>> I'll also say that I do agree about the observations about how iset.mm 
>>> and set.mm are similar enough that it is also awkward, in different 
>>> ways, to keep them separate. There are a lot of theorems which can 
>>> simply be copy-pasted in one direction or the other.
>>>
>>
>> And of course these copy-pasted theorems are a future maintenance issue, 
>> since people will have to remember to change them in tandem (or not! if the 
>> change needs classical logic) and this is hard to deal with without a 
>> global view of all the databases. 
>>
>>

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