hi! cheers! Steve Dunklee http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925886
--- On Sat, 1/28/12, MexicoDoug <mexicod...@aim.com> wrote: > From: MexicoDoug <mexicod...@aim.com> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution > To: mar...@westnet.com, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 12:46 AM > Hi Mark, > > "Would appreciate a reference for the nickel chloride being > 15 times > more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate." > > That's not what I wrote although it could be true I have no > such reference to support the above. > > What I did write was: > > "Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) > is carcinogenic at levels > 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid > etching." > > There is a huge difference between what you understood and > what I actually wrote as threshhold toxicity levels don't > necessarily equate to activity factors. This is > because the body has dozens of competing homeostatic > (metabolic, immune/allergic, etc.) processes that relate to > detoxification and an imbalance occurs when that one single > straw to many put on the camel breaks its back. > > The reference should be any MSDS (Material Safety Data > Sheet), just check whichever one you have access to or dig > up first. > > Toxicology, especially when it comes to carcinogens is so > complex that I don't think anyone understands it, or they > would already gotten a billion buck grant from the NIH by > now. It just comes in many small pieces. I share > your opinion that we should reference and I'm sorry if I > just dumped all this information for discussion, but it was > more useful that keeping i to myself. I've not found a > reasonable layman's treatise anywhere on the subject so I > figured the met list was as good as it gets without opening > yet another research project to compete with the other ones > I've got floundering. > > Anyway, the exposure limits I mention I believe are for lab > rats approximating other mammals, like humans. Again, > the more you get into this the more it's hard to muzzle > oneself becasue now we're getting further into it: > > so - must ask, can you breath it in (probably not in most > cases, but definiely cover your mouth, eyes, and any other > open oriface such as a wound when doing this. That > should be 'common knowledge' but really if doing it for the > first time, maybe not. > > and - must ask, so how permeable is the skin to it ... > becasue if one has a 15X lower threshhold but is 15x more > difficult to uptake, then we'd have a wash. Then there > are solubility issues, but these both look like they are > well soluble, just a glance at the MSDS will answer that. > > last here, but definitely not any closure, is; what's the > significance of getting these things into ones local > envoironment and the general environment (waters, soils, > air, etc.). We don't think about this but doing it out > on the concrete patio outside of the kitchen and tossing the > waste into the immediate area, it will dry and become > particulate contaminants which over time the wind will > distribute in the lungs of little boys playing there, > through the kitchen window, etc. Probably no big deal > in most cases, but there is always that one case that > something goes terribly wrong. And getting back to the > maximum 'permissible' exposure limit (sheesh, now to add > residence time, cumulative properties in the body, it's head > spinning). > > Which is why, in this case for a rat which is assumed to > react as a human (but may not), at least we can point a > finger at the threshold of toxicity, which itself is a a > single point determined after half of the subjects have > croaked, illustrating that half are just fine whereas it is > toxic to half of them at even lower levels, or something > along tose lines. > > As for your other reference of isopropyl vs. ethyl alcohols > and explosion hazards, I'm sorry but perhaps someone else > has more time to develop this properly vs. this informal > discussion forum. If I had time and a full lab, I > would start by maing a ternary diagram of the two alcohols > and nitric acid, and plot the flash point of the mixture for > starters. The information I saw was anecdotal and not > rigorous nor very quantitative. However I don't hacve > time to spend on this subject any more due to personal > circumstances and recommend that you try googling. > This is not a case of a proving beyond a reasonable doubt > that it is more explosive. However there are enough > warnings out there thaty would seem to suggest more violent > and higher incidence of isopropanol-HNO3 mixtures than the > EtOH analog, since we are talking about personal > safety. Clearly Isopropyl alcohol is similar > inproperties relating to etching that given the more > widespread use in general metallurgy of EtOH, it's the devil > we know better > > I'm convinced of the Isopropanol/ethanol issue all I need to > be more vigilant. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't use > it if there was some reason to do that. Rather than > obsessing too much over a terribly complex issue and coming > to the same inconclusion, I'd just make simple, yet > effective modifications to my procedure - > Why deal with comncentrated nitric in a home environment at > all? How silly! You (general) want to save a few > pennies at your own risk, pennywise --- just have the > Hazardous Materials emergency number handy. Otherwise > buy the diluted acid= problem significantly minimized. > You want to make etchant? Don't make such a large > amount in a bottle/beaker at once. Don't use such an > excess when etching, experiment by painting it on with a > brush instead - problem significantly minimuzed ... and so > on. > > Hope this gives better insight. Having THE answer to > these things is too tall an order, yet experience and common > sense are why other individuals can etch more easily than > making scrambled eggs. Our appreciation of risk is > terribly distorted. Once I was in a discussion with > Sterling sopmewhere discussing this and he even referenced > someplace, proabbly wiki the bias I described had a > name. You know, the same one that evaluates whether to > be frightened from falling asteroids vs. driving to work in > the morning. I'm still waiting for the thriller movie, > "Highway jaunt" where no rogue asteroids or murderous > psychopats pass by, but Strawberry Shortcake girl just takes > her car for a spin and suddenly every individual in the > traffic stream has a compulsion to run over her on her sweet > bicycle. Point of the dumb example being the high risk > we have experience has much lower fear factor than the > almost non-existent risk which ends in carnage and mahem, > even if a decision tree analysis shows that the friendly > risk is a million times more likely. > > Kindest wsihes > Doug > > PS I have stretched too much to participate in this give > some other difficult responsibilities I ahve at the m,oment > so I did my best and will likely retire for a while to catch > up on things. > > PPS, After all this, I think my new etchant of choice will > be Coca Cola. No doubt it works or can be tweaked to, > too. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Grossman <mar...@westnet.com> > To: nf114ec <nf11...@npgcable.com>; > meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>; > MexicoDoug <mexicod...@aim.com> > Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 6:20 pm > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution > > > Hi, > > Couple of thoughts. > > Mark's Law: > > If you're standing in the exact same spot as someone else > when a mixture of > nitric acid and ethanol explodes, the sensitivities of the > two individuals > to harm are always the same. :-) > > Both nickel chloride and nickel nitrate are soluble nickel > compounds, and as > far as carcinogenicity goes, the American Conference of > Governmental > Industrial Hygienists and the International Agency for > Research on Cancer > group the two compounds together. As far as I am > aware, there was no > singling out of nickel chloride as being 15 times more > carcinogenic than > nickel nitrate - you indicated both are products of etching > - one from > ferric chloride and the other from nitric acid. The > insoluble oxides of > nickel are more carcinogenic, but that's not the compounds > you are referring > to. Would appreciate a reference for the nickel > chloride being 15 times > more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate. > > Similarly, would appreciate a reference to isopropyl alcohol > being more > dangerous to use for etching with nitric acid than ethanol, > under the same > set of conditions. Why is isopropyl alcohol more prone > to a "freak" > explosion or "blow up" than ethanol? Explosions with > concentrated nitric > acid and ethanol are well-documented. > > Now I am not relying on Wikipedia as an academic reference, > but I think the > information contained on the webpage is worthy of discussion > and/or > criticism. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nital and the mention of > the > hazards associated with 5 and 10 percent solutions. > This information > appears to come from Bretherick, which is a pretty good > chemical reference > that I have used in the past (see > http://www.ab.ust.hk/hseo/tips/ls/ls005.htm). > > Reading Material Safety Data Sheets should always be > required - but realize > that many are inadequate and often do not list or spell out > the safety > precautions which should be employed. > > A lot of technical information was contained in the last few > emails, and if > we all agree that respect for chemicals is critical, then it > would be useful > to confirm the facts. > > Thanks! > > Mark > > Mark Grossman > Meteorite Manuscripts > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicod...@aim.com> > To: <nf11...@npgcable.com>; > <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:02 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution > > > > Hi Jim, > > > > My respects to all the ferric chloride lovers out there > and > especially Ron > > Hartman, bless him. A blanket statement of a > "better etch" is pretty > > meaningless. I recall asking Arcady who had all > the Seymchan several > > years back why all of his specimens were etched so > deeply that they > looked > > like someone chiseled the etch into them and then put > on a matte > > clearcoat. He said, the customers prefer a deep > etch. I thought it > was > > butt ugly (not to mention a more discrete etching such > as by mild > nitric > > acid's slow action introduces far less nucleation sites > for > oxidation). > > There are so many factors. > > > > If the iron chloride etch were better it wouldn't hurt > to send those > > conclusions to the Smithsonian, British Museum, Weiner > > Naturhistorisches > > Museum, Max-Planck-Institut für Chemie (or whatever > its called now) > > Collection, Paris Muséum National d'Histoire > Naturelle, etc. for > comment. > > ;-) > > > > BTW, there are many variables not realated to the etch > to consider. > > Though ferric chloride is 'easier', when it comes to > mixing up, it > doesn't > > mean it is less toxic in other ways. Ever wonder > if it was legal or > smart > > to pour spent solution down the drain or into the > soils? Nickel > chloride > > and nickel nitrate (produced in etching) are both > mutagenic. Only > Nickel > > chloride (a result of ferric chloride etching) is > carcinogenic at > levels > > 15 times lower than those produced from nitric acid > etching. But > with all > > the other heavy metal ions in iron meteorites, again, > respect for the > > chemical is important regardless of what risks are > perceived - it's > never > > the full story and like smoking, everyone doesn't even > have equal > > sensitivity. > > > > Kindest wishes > > Douh > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jim Wooddell <nf11...@npgcable.com> > > To: Meteorite-List <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > > Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 6:48 am > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution > > > > > > I believe there was an article by Hartman a few years > back about the > use > > of > > ferric chloride. The conclusion was that it gave > a better etch??? I > > think > > it was in Meteorite-Times. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > Jim Wooddell > > http://k7wfr > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicod...@aim.com> > > To: <mexicod...@aim.com>; > <mar...@westnet.com>; > > <meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca>; > <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:49 AM > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution > > > > > >> "Besides water, I'm suspecting Nitric + acetone > (Nitkeytone ?) and > > any > >> number of other solvents would work" > >> > >> OK, don'rt bother with this one! I just did; > It actually etches, but > >> leaves a yucky finish. The fumes are no worse > than other nitals, > > though I > >> wouldn't want to breath much of them until I knew > more; but there > > didn't > >> seem to be any decomposition. I used reagent > grade acetone to avoid > >> possibly nasty impurities, and the nitric acid > concentration only > > 3.9% > >> just in case I hit a flash point, full face shield > and a fan venting > > right > >> out the door. Nice to have had an 81 F day > today and still its warm > >> enough to open the door ;-) nice etch, terrible > residue. > >> > >> Kindest wishes > >> Doug > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: MexicoDoug <mexicod...@aim.com> > >> To: markig <mar...@westnet.com>; > meteoritesnorth > >> <meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca>; > meteorite-list > >> <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > >> Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 3:11 am > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution > >> > >> > >> "explosive" > >> > >> Definitely caution when playing around with > corrosives is of the > first > >> order...that said, > >> > >> sure, ethanol is a racing car engine fuel and under > the right > >> conditions can combust; But people drink it even > straight... > >> > >> Many things we do have risks associated with them > some very serious > > and > >> definitely we must respect all reagents especially > corrosives like > >> nitric acid. For example, many people enjoy > fireworks. Yet, > > fireworks > >> are explosive and dangerous if you put them near > sparks or heat,or > try > >> to light them with a charcoal grill. And > obviously gasoline combusts > >> too yet mechanics and Dads everywhere use it to > clean hands and metal > >> parts and also have arc welders nearby. Or > sulfuric acid inside a > car > >> battery - don't get it on your bikini when working > on the car! If > you > >> are going to use anything, it needs to be done with > respect and a > > quick > >> read of the MSDS of whatever chemicals you are > using... (and don't > >> trust everything you read on a discussion l;ist > posted at 3 AM) > >> > >> It is not a good idea to have concentrated nitric > acid and ignore the > >> label, for example and my heart goes out to Anita > on that. Depends > > the > >> kind of person you are. When I make my > smoothie in the morning I use > >> fresh cherries as one of 18-20 ingredients and a > preparation that > > takes > >> an hour. It's life threatening if I > accidentally put a pit in my > >> blender (which can easily liquify meteorites, it's > so powerful) due > to > >> the specialized needs of a family member who cannot > eat. So I double > >> count the cherries first, count the pits as I punch > them out, and > then > >> count them once again when I dispose of them. > No shortcuts, All > > common > >> sense! > >> > >> Bart Simpson's pet python once made nital in an > episode of The > >> Simpsons, which is amusing if you haven't had a bad > experience you > >> can't laugh about.... I think the writers were > Caltech rejects that > > had > >> to go to MIT and have to do this to humor > themselves, this wasn't the > >> only snarky chemistry episode. > >> > >> (episode: Stop or my Dog will Shoot!) > >> > >> Here's the link: > >> > >> http://video.i.ua/user/810302/8185/35583/ > >> > >> it take a little time to stream, but once ready the > scene is at the > >> 17:49 minute:seconds mark. > >> > >> ... and that' why in my summary which I did much > too quickly to be > >> complete, I suggest that you use water, that is to > say, NitH20,. or > as > >> it's commonly known just dilute Nitric Acid, rather > tha alcohols to > >> develop your method. Nothing wrong with > water, it is really getting > a > >> bum wrap and it is GRAS ;-) It is what > everyone that is using FeCl3 > > is > >> using as a diluent, too. For the HNO3 the 3.0 > N concentration works > >> best for me. Absolutely no need to buy > concentrated acid and you can > >> avoid all the issues of what to add to what and no > need for Hazmet > >> backup. You can buy it already diluted, get > the same benefit of a > >> nitric acid etch (alcohol doesn't etch, it's only a > carrier and > >> diluent). Just crank up the oven to the > higher end of a safe drying > >> temperature. That's the only real benefit of > alcohol in my opinion - > >> it allows a cooler drying which can povide a nicer > (lower oxdation > >> residue on the virgin etched surface, but now we > are staerting rally > > to > >> split hairs...IMO. > >> > >> Speaking of diluents, there's no reason nital > (alcohol) is special as > > a > >> diluent. Besides water, I'm suspecting Nitric > + acetone (Nitkeytone > > ?) > >> and any number of other solvents would work fine if > not be hiding a > >> secret for even a better etching solution. > Sure acetone is flammable > >> and can give you the willies too, you can't win but > that doesn't stop > >> women who understand the chemical they use from > putting it on their > >> fingernails ;-) granted not with acid, though I bet > some do > >> inadvertantly mix it with salycilic acid solution > when disolving > > excess > >> skin ;-), which if not used properly could > chemically remove a lot of > >> flesh ... > >> Kindest wishes > >> Doug > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Mark Grossman <mar...@westnet.com> > >> To: MexicoDoug <mexicod...@aim.com>; > meteoritesnorth > >> <meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca>; > meteorite-list > >> <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > >> Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 12:32 am > >> Subject: Fw: [meteorite-list] Etching solution > >> > >> > >> Did a quick search on the internet. Read this > tale from the > Meteorite > >> Association of Georgia regarding the hazards of > mixing nitric acid > and > >> ethanol: > >> http://www.meteoriteassociationofgeorgia.org/article-052007.htm. > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> Mark Grossman > >> Meteorite Manuscripts > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Mark Grossman" <mar...@westnet.com> > >> To: <mexicod...@aim.com>; > <meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca>; > >> <Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > >> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:40 PM > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution > >> > >> > >>> I don't know all of the details of the etching > process, but a word of > >>> caution - mixing concentrated nitric acid with > ethanol can result in > >> an > >>> explosion and a fire. I've witnessed the > results of the reaction > when > >>> someone inadvertently mixed the two in a lab > years ago. > >>> > >>> Mark > >>> > >>> Mark Grossman > >>> Meteorite Manuscripts > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicod...@aim.com> > >>> To: <mexicod...@aim.com>; > <meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca>; > >>> <Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > >>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:23 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution > >>> > >>> > >>>> PS - if you don't have a hood or other > exhaust, the methyl alcohol > >> could > >>>> also be dangerous becasue the liver breaks > it down into toxins and > >> you > >>>> will inhale some of it. That's > another reason why I use ethanol in > >> the > >>>> oven, and frankly much more important a > reason than saving a few > >> pennies > >>>> ;-) You can consider the residence > time of the toxins in your > >> system to > >>>> be as long as a week, so if your are doing > etxching all day > long,and > >> are > >>>> using methanol nital you definitely need a > very well ventilated > >> place, > >>>> and methanol is sneaky worthy of a CSI > episode of an innocent who > >> done it > >>>> since the syptoms and critical second hit > can be stealth and barely > >>>> naseaous for the first. > >>>> > >>>> I know you didn't ask about methyl alcohol, > but its good to see the > >> 4 > >>>> common solcvent benefits/liabilities side > by side, at least my take > >> on > >>>> it. Anyway, you can see why ethyl alcohol > iis usually preferred. I > >> just > >>>> checkethe azeotrophes andisopropyl is only > 2.3 C above ethanol > >> mixtures > >>>> so its ability to remove water would be > very similar in the oven, > >> the > >>>> last thing to look up to decide > theoretically approximating the > >>>> penetrating ability as related to the > surface tension of the > alcohol > >>>> (just a guess) what is the bestest alcohol > would be to check the > >> surface > >>>> tension. I just did and all three > alcohols are nearly 4 times that > >> of > >>>> water and within 5% o each other, so I > would think that on > >> penetrating > >>>> ability they are probably all tied and > would argue all factors > >> considered > >>>> ethanol is best since the worst you get is > a standard hangover in > >>>> standard use conditions, and to get a freak > explosion from EtOH > >> mixtures > >>>> with acid is minimal compared to > isopropyl. > >>>> > >>>> Ferric chloride of course doesn't have the > toxicity not > >> flammability, but > >>>> it stains like heck and with proper respect > for the reagents plus a > >>>> little experience, like everything else the > risks are minimized. > >> That's > >>>> another reason to start with dilute nitric > which I highly recommend > >> until > >>>> you have the bugs worked out of the etching > "assembly line", ie, > >> method > >>>> you find best for your work. > >>>> > >>>> Good luck, > >>>> > >>>> Kindest wshes > >>>> Doug. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: MexicoDoug <mexicod...@aim.com> > >>>> To: meteoritesnorth <meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca>; > Meteorite-list > >>>> <Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > >>>> Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 10:30 pm > >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching > solution > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Craig, > >>>> Let me add (the message actually got away > before being finished as > I > >>>> write piecemeal and then send) that as far > as etching it works > fine, > >>>> but if you look at the series of alcohols, > methyl (bp = 65 C), > ethyl > >>>> (bp = 78 C) and isoproply alcohol (bp = 83 > C), methyl alcohol > >>>> (methanol) is by far the safest until you > get a lot of experience > >>>> working with these under a hood. > "Ethyl nital" is mildly flammable > >> in > >>>> and Isopropyl nital is pretty dangerous > since if can blow up in > >> certain > >>>> conditions that aren't difficult to > arrange. Nothing to do with > the > >>>> etching results which are left to trial and > error, but rather the > >>>> safety which I should have mentioned. > >>>> > >>>> While all the alcohols work fine, keep in > mind two of the factors > > you > >>>> are working with are miscibility/penetrant > ability and vapor > >> pressure. > >>>> Vapor pressure you can estimate by boiling > point - lower bp is a > >> higher > >>>> vp. The higher vp the quicker it will > evaporate out, so methanol > >> would > >>>> seem to have the advantage, thought it > might form some azeotropes > > and > >>>> stay in longer, as could the rest without > looking this up (no time > > at > >>>> the moment). > >>>> > >>>> To the series of three common alcohols you > could just add water bp > = > >>>> 100 and consider it almost as a continuim > and play with the you > like > >>>> which will influence drying time among > other important parameters. > > I > >>>> use methanol and later rinse with ethanol > (cheaper for me), which > is > >>>> the reverse of good drying practice I would > think, but half of the > >> time > >>>> I just use the diluted acid at 2 - 3 N. > >>>> > >>>> Hope that was a better answer, sorry for > not finishing the first > >>>> kindest wishes > >>>> Doug > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Craig Moody <meteoritesno...@hotmail.ca> > >>>> To: mexicodoug <mexicod...@aim.com> > >>>> Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 9:42 pm > >>>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Etching > solution > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Much appreciated Doug, Thank you! I > have lots of 99% around. > >>>> > >>>> Craig > >>>> > ______________________________________________ > >>>> > >>>> Visit the Archives at > >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >>>> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >>>> > >>>> > ______________________________________________ > >>>> > >>>> Visit the Archives at > >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >>>> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >>> > >>> ______________________________________________ > >>> > >>> Visit the Archives at > >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >>> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> > >> > >> ______________________________________________ > >> > >> Visit the Archives at > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> > >> ______________________________________________ > >> > >> Visit the Archives at > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > > Visit the Archives at > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > > Visit the Archives at > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list