John,
Bingo...
The fact is, the only specimen of a meteorite that can be said to be
Authentic is that actual specimen that is tested in that
laboratory.
Every other specimen from said main mass or similar stones from a strewn field
are technically "knockoffs", therein lies the trust
of provenance,
certificates, labels, laboratory, seller. And yes, occasionally, even the most
esteemed classifiers have had to Update certain
previous classifications.
Provenance, trust & knowledge is the real ticket. Yep, pretty much a non-issue.
Things were much more trustworthy (BeB) - before eBay.
.--- .-.. --- ..- -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bigjohn Shea via Meteorite-list" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: "metlist" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2022 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] CERTIFICATION OF AUTHENTICITY
Thought I'd chime in...
In my humble opinion, this is a non-issue.
In the world of collectibles such as meteorites determining the authenticity of
a specimen occurs in one of three ways:
1) You know enough about a specimen yourself to decide on your own that it is
what someone says it is.
2) You know enough about the person (or company) you are buying from to trust
that it is what someone says it is.
3) You trade with a noted institution and get exactly what they say it is.
Whether or not there is a larger organization that is "authorized" to give
certifications on a specimen is meaningless.
a) Not every specimen can be certified by that organization. Nor should they
be. They would be overwhelmed with specimens, and as
we all know the definitive methods of testing are nearly all destructive in
nature.
b) Even when such organizations do exist, they are frequently fallible,
sometimes corrupt, and often disagree with one another if
there is more than one organization issuing certifications.
Some prime examples of this are from the world of genuine Japanese sword
collecting, also called Nihonto collecting.
i) The most highly respected shinsa (judgement of authenticity for a sword)
organization in Japan is called the NBTHK. They went
through a significant scandal in the 1970's when antique swords with gimei
(fake) signatures, where certified as zaimei (genuine)
signatures. This occurred for various reasons, the most crucial of which was
bribery. All swords certified during that era had to
subsequently be re-certified under the new leadership and scholarship of the
organization, and a huge number of those swords were
found to have fake signatures.
ii) Another respected organization that performs shinsa is called the NTHK. I
have personally submitted a sword for NTHK shinsa and
had it approved as zaimei, only to submit it again to the NBTHK and see them
call the signature gimei. In other words, not even the
most respected scholars in a field of study always agree.
Cheers,
John A. Shea, MD
IMCA 3295
Sent using the mobile mail app
On 7/27/22 at 2:52 AM, Maurizio Eltri via Meteorite-list wrote:
>
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I am thinking that perhaps there are
> interpretative rules that may vary from country
> to country. At least here in Italy and a little
> more generally in Europe, a certificate is an
> important document and as such its value can only
> be given if it is drawn up by a person or body
> legally responsible for doing so. If everyone
> could draw up any certificate on their own, it
> certainly would no longer have the same value.
> In the specific case you write "In this case the
> seller is" certifying "the" authenticity "of the
> meteorite he is selling." In this case the
> document cannot define a certificate but rather a
> self-certification or rather a self-declaration,
> which are very different things.
>
>
>
> At 17:34 26/07/2022, you wrote:
> >I guess I am just not understanding how the word
> >"certificate' is misrepresenting anything. I
> >am not sure where the text you copied came from
> >or how it relates, but the word certificate is
> >appropriate when a specific entity is formallyÂ
> >stating something. In this case, the seller is
> >"certifying" the "authenticity" of the meteorite
> >they are selling. It is correct usage.  The
> >cards I use don't actually say "certificate of
> >authenticity" on them  but when customers ask
> >about a "COA" I know what they are talking about
> >and don't see anything wrong with the
> >term. They clearly know that it is the seller,
> >and not some other entity, making the claim that
> >the item is authentic, so there is no problem of
> >confusion of what it means. Regarding the
> >issue of a "lack of seriousness" of the seller,
> >times change. It could be that at one point
> >people might have found the term weird, but for
> >new collectors a COA is just an assumed part of
> >a purchase. If they asked for one and you said
> >"I don't provide those, but I have a label" that
> >would indicate to them a lack of
> >seriousness. The difference is that the term
> >"label" doesn't imply that the seller is
> >vouching for the authenticity of something --
> >and although it is true the owner would be
> >responsible for mistakes whether he vouched for
> >it or not, there is really no downside to
> >vouching for it, and it gives the buyer some
> >piece of mind to have a document providing
> >provenance in which the seller stated that the
> >item was genuine. But if you don't like the
> >term certificate of authenticity, don't use it
> >on your cards -- I don't -- but don't imply that
> >there is anything incorrect or dishonest or
> >unserious about the term just because it doesn't appeal to you personally.Â
> >
> >
> >
> >On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 12:09 AM Maurizio Eltri
> >via Meteorite-list
> ><<mailto:meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >Dear friends,
> >
> >I believe that even a "marketing tool" cannot
> >misrepresent the meaning of the words, this can
> >lead to suspect the lack of seriousness of the seller.
> >
> >..............................................................
> >Significato della parola âCERTIFICATOâ :
> >
> >  In sintetici si può dire che il certificato è
> >un attestato di conformità (rilasciato rispetto
> >ad una specifica precisata, non esiste la
> >certificazione generica) emesso da un soggetto,
> >terzo e, autorizzato (qualificato, accreditato,
> >indipendente) a farlo (per legge , per norme ISO
> >e relativi accordi di riconoscimento, ecc.)
> >Â Â
> ><https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificato>https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificato
> >
> >
> >Meaning of the word "CERTIFICATE":
> >Â Â In summary, it can be said that the
> >certificate is a certificate of conformity
> >(issued with respect to a specified
> >specification, there is no generic certification)
> >issued by a subject, third party and authorized
> >(qualified, accredited, independent) to do so (by
> >law, for ISO standards and related recognition agreements, etc.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--
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