My compliments too,
that you answered to my email.
In my eyes you are missing some essential points.
In the metioned article your assertion was made concerning solely the Oman.
May I quote again?
" Drawing on his experience with meteor fragments in Oman where he set up a
program to recover fragments from the desert, he (Pfof.Matter) said that the
program had recovered meteorite fragments from the moon and even one from
Mars. Collectors though, he said, had robbed the desert of its heritage
simply for money and not for scientific research."
With this statement and this word choice ("robbed") you are not only
implying that those collectors acted unethically, but also that they acted
illegally.
I have here right on my desk a paper issued by the ministry of industry and
commerce, Muscat, giving the permit for export of the stones, which were
presented and inspected there before.
I simply won't accept, that you spuriously accuse the finder of those
meteorites, who cared for the legal export, to be a criminal.
That is completely unbearable.
Your specialization in sedimentology and geochemistry, the fact, that you
never took part in a meteorite expedition in Oman and your response now is a
portent for me, that you supposedly don't have the insight, what exactly was
taking place in Oman concerning meteorites.
But I gladly will contribute some explanations for you.
Until 2 years ago export permits were issued for the finds of the collectors
by the authorities of Oman. So you might not be surprised anylonger, that
meteorites from Oman were available on the collectors market, if I remember
right e.g. Dhofar 001 was found in 1999 by a Russian expedition. This
partially explains your point (1)
You may not approve to the fact, that the Omani didn't percieve their
meteorites to be a natural heritage worthy of protection, but to deduce from
this lack of awareness, that the hunters or collectors, call them like you
want, would be criminals is inadmissible.
That meteorites are no subject to national laws (e.g. to mining laws etc) is
the normal case, as meteorites are a so exceedingly rare, that in general
they didn't attract interest at all, nor was cared for a special legal
reglementation for them, most probably because of the small volume of the
finds (we are talking about a few tons worldwide in the last 10 years) and
the monetary neglibility of that, what you may imagine to be the private
meteorite market.
(Remember e.g. the discussions risen about the legal status of the recent
Neuschwanstein fall).
Funny enough it were the activities of the private hunters, mainly in the
Mahgreb countries and the appearance of the NWA meteorites on the market
during the last 4 years, which rose the awareness in several nations, that
meteorites do exist at all and that they have to be protected by
corresponding laws.
Exceptions here were Australia and Canada, Namibia (because of Gibeon too, I
guess, since 2001 the export is forbidden).
I ask myself, why the Suisse universities with there good cooperations with
Oman since 30 years, failed through this long period to advise the
authorities of Oman to protect their meteorites from being brought out from
the country.
So again. Call the teams which are collecting nowadays not respecting the
new situation or those individuals, who never cared before for export
permits, looters, but avoid such polemic simplifications.
Secondly:
We have a fundamentally different situation with the meteorites from Oman
compared to the NWA-meteorites.
The Omani meteorites are collected by persons, who perform an excellent
field work. Each stone is photographed in situ, the coordinates are taken by
GPS,
the number of the fragments is noted (some note also details about the
geology around the find site), the date of find is recorded as well as the
exact weight of all stones, and a provisional field number for further
processing is conferred.
Thus exactly the modus operandi which the Swiss-Omani teams are applying
and, if you want, which are analoguos to the proceeding of the Antarctic
teams.
A huge volume of data was consequently assembled and was made accessible to
research. Strewnfields could be reconstructed, leading to further finds
(like e.g. the Martian of the Suisse team). All in all an effort, which the
Suisse team alone couln't have accomplished.
By the way the most successful team in Oman ever, was lead by skilled
geologists, employed by the Vernadsky institute, one of the leading
institutions in meteoritics.
Furthermore by no means are the finds from Oman lost for research.
It is of vital concern for the commercial oriented teams, that they get
there stones classified, as it increases the value of the material
remarkably. So you'll find, that grosso modo all Omani finds were properly
classified (or are under classification), even the most weathered ordinary
equilibrated chondrites and we have here a much more transparent situation
as e.g. in highly developed countries like the USA, if I'm looking e.g. at
the Nevada finds, which are partially sold without coordinates and
unclassified.
And if I'm allowed to remark, each classification requires a deposit of
material reserved for further research.
Thus the field work of the commercial collectors was nothing less than a
remarkable contribution to science.
Thirdly).
You write "More important however to me is the quality of the research
carried out on the material."
Exactely! Because of the brilliant work of those robbers, who convey all
their finds to the institutions for classifications with all field data,
a flood of papers and articles about the Omani meteorites resulted and is
still in progress and in contrast to the Sahara finds,
practically no Omani find is lost for science
and your esteemed colleagues and luminaries from the best renowned
institutes, do have munitions for decades!
Please check the Bulletins and the article databases, who and where all-over
published about Dhofar finds. I don't have to go further in details here,
nor do I believe, that you as a sedimentologist would doubt the skills of
the leading specialists in the field of meteorites worldwide.
And as we know of the limited personnel resources of universities, you don't
have to forget, that with the distribution of the Dhofar meteorites to
several institutes, the progress of retrieving results and the cognitions
are enormously accelerated. (well, I know that in the world of universities
the cornucopia of time is inexhaustible, but imagine how long it would take,
if only the university of Zürich and Bern would have to analyse let's say
4000 different meteorites).
Some remarks to Wabar, which you brought up.
I don't know the situation in Saudi Arabia,
your accusation in that interview was concerning the situation in Oman.
If it's illegal to search or to export meteorites from Saudi Arabia and
someone tried it, then it was a criminal act, no question,
though I see no coherence with your incorrect statement concerning Oman.
That samples of Wabar are available is not a reason for perturbation.
You have to know that meteorites were always traded and sold, namely from
the middle of the 19th century, when it was a matter of national reputation
to amass a collection with as much different localities as possible.
And also today professional meteorite dealers are in touch with museums and
institutional collections trading their material versus historical finds and
falls (and even donating specimens) and additionally they acquire specimens
from old private collections, from those times, when these admonished
localities were dealt without any restrictions.
So you will find e.g. Gibeon everywhere offered, although it is forbidden
since years to export it, you will find the Canadian meteorites like
Bruderheim or Springwater and those Australian meteorites for which nowadays
no export permits won't be issued anylonger, like Karoonda, Barratta and so
on.
Those are not robbed, they simply stem from times, where nobody had an idea,
that it could be a kind of a natural heritage.
Wabar is said to be firstly recovered long before Philby (1933) in 1863.
Fits well together with the luminescence dating, recently carried out, which
suggests an terrestrial age of 289 ± 46 years. Pieces of Wabar were offered
for sale already in 1885.
So just ask the offeror, where he got his specimen from.
To point 4)
..and there are still a large number waiting to be recovered. I don't have
to iterate my thoughts from above.
Personally I never read or heard about, that any of those countries with the
strictest regimentations for meteorites ever postulated to give their
meteorites back. Omani meteorites are meanwhile spread over many different
institutional collections, but to demonstrate a sign of goodwill, you may
encourage the museum in Bern to repatriate those samples from Oman, which
were not found by the Suisse expeditions.
And we could discuss about the status of meteorites in general.
They aren't essential natural resources like treasures of the soil,
they have no economical significance and no inherent monetary value.
Nor are they comparable to archeological artifacts, which are a cultural
heritage. Nor do they impart a region or a place a special uniqueness like
natural monuments. In fact they are so unimpressive, that one has to search
a long time until one comes up against one and only a few specialists are
able to identify them in the field. And if not some of those hunters once
decided to look in the arid deserts for them, nobody, including the Suisse
universities would even know, that the desert are larded with them; they
simply would rot and weather to pieces as they did the aeons before too. Nor
are they useful for the local people (and the removing wouldn't mean a loss
comparable to the bio-piracy, you mentioned). Nor do they have any practical
avail.
They tend to fall from the sky, equally distributed all over the globe.
The only quality they own is, that they have a scientific value.
To point 5)
I am not a lawyer, but the legal status of the Antarctic meteorites is until
now is not straight or clarified.
" Why do you think this action was necessary??".
Simply because of the Antarctic Treaty System of 1959,
which attests, that no signer has any territorial claims and which prohibit
any activities to exploit the resources there and the special imperative to
avoid any encroachment into the Antarctic ecosystem.
As the hunting - the term "hunting", to tick off the point with the ungood
connotation, I quote from the ANSMET homepage -,
the removal of meteorites and the activities necessary for the recovery
programs violated the Antarctic Treaty System,
thus a special regularisation for the Antarctic meteorites was necessary.
(To avoid any shock experiences: Before coming into force a little material
of a few Antarctic meteorites were swapped with private persons and
sometimes you'll find them available for sale).
The danger, that private spoilers would foray meteorites in Antarctica was
at those time certainly not a decisive factor. In the 70ies the number of
meteorite aficionados was very limited and meteorites were very cheap.
And still today the immense costs it would take to finance a private
expedition to the blue ice fields, is out of all proportions to the
commercial returns.
(Btw. With a minute fraction of the means spent fort he Antarctic programs,
the institutes could have bought all Sahara and Omani finds, which were ever
brought to light and they would have got it delivered right to the door.
That's why I regard those permanent statements about preserving the
meteorites for research, the urgence to do so and insinuations of that kind,
which you expressed in that article, as, pardon me the harsh expression, but
I can't find a more accurately one, as highly bigoted).
That you have a totally wrong impression about the commercial market of
meteorites, be that as it may, many collectors have similar imaginations.
We are talking about 1000 meteorite collectors worldwide and a handful of
institutional collections, most with a very limited budget, being able to
purchase only small samples of a few grams.
The overall amount of recovered material in Oman and in Sahara during the
times of the desert rush of the last 6-7 years doesn't exceed a few tonnes.
If one has had the idea to buy up ALL desert finds at once, I estimate, that
one wouldn't have had to spend more than 2-4 mio USD.
(Btw to resell those finds again, one would need more than 100 years, so
small is the collector's scene).
That's what you talking about. Any comparison to other fields like raw
materials, precious stones, artifacts, minerals, fossils is ridiculous and
that's the main reason, why many countries were not aware of protecting
their meteorites.
(I have to remark, that the private team illegally collecting meteorite,
which was arrested in Oman last year, was released again without a trail, as
the issue was decided to be a case of exiguity).
"The unprofessional statement concerning publishing in GeoArabia.."
was exactly the trap I planned you to step in - Many thanks that you did so
- for you to see how it feels, if one is attacked in public by unqualified
statements.
(Although for me it's still highly strange, that a person is talking about
ethics and morality, but has published in a place, where the mentioned
corporations are highlighted a "platinum sponsors", if I think to the
horrible devastations some of those firms cause in the Niger delta,
depriving the local population completely of their life resource, even not
flinching from murder or the refusal to employ double-walled oil-tankers,
wherever it still isn't mandatory, which was in past the reason for the most
impressive environmental disaters. All in all more grave crimes, than to
legally export some stones from desert, in which nobody is interested in.
I wouldn't be so bold...)
To find back to a conciliable end.
" You measure the success of collecting in grams"
Not at all, reread my mail.
I chose , because the Suisse teams were so rightly proud of their
Shergottite and Lunar find, Moon and Mars as example for the skills and
efficiency of the other teams. Explicitly I geared to the number of
different Marses and Moons they recovered, supposed that with the number of
rare types similar ratios will to be lined out and finally complimented them
for the quality of their finds.
All I did to demonstrate that they are well trained and skilled, also to
identify uncommon types (and if e.g. a lunaite hasn't any crust anymore
left, it is extremely difficult also for experts, who handled similar
material before in the lab, to tell it apart from terrestrial stones),
that all in all they were more successful and efficient than the Suisse
teams - I heard about other official expeditions from scientists e.g. in
Sahara, which had to be cancelled, simply because they found no meteorites,
why afterwards the commercial hunters had in the very same fields remarkable
finds -
with the aim to animate you instead of disavow those hunters to invite them
to join the Suisse team. With an adequate payment for them,
it would be a perfect win/win situation, cause the expeditions most probably
would have better results and those greedy depredators wouldn't have to sell
their finds at the doubled kg-price of Emmentaler cheese anylonger.
Sorry for my remarks being somewhat longish,
for most members of this forum those issues are known, obvious and evident
(and I presume that e.g. Beda Hofmann wouldn't share the perspective of
Prof.Matter neither),
but as here on this list are also several new collectors, I thought it was
necessary to avoid them getting wrong impressions.
Regards,
Martin Altmann
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Albert Matter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. März 2006 13:06
An: Martin Altmann
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: AW: [meteorite-list] Empty quarter expedition
After Compliments,
The accusations made in this e-mail letter and the partly
unprofessional statements require an answer and clarifications. What
has the unprofessional statement concerning publishing in GeoArabia to
do with the issue under question? I am a sedimentologist/geochemist and
have amongst other projects on the hydrogeology of Oman and
paleoclimate of southern Arabia over many years carried out with my
teams basic research on basin analysis and diagenesis of hydrocarbon
bearing basins in many countries from Indonesia to the Americas and
from the North Sea to the Mediterranean Basin. Why do you think the
petroleum industry was keen to collaborate with us and providing access
to their wealth of unpublished data and especially core samples which
made the projects in the first place possible? Because it was a win/win
situation for both sides! Why then should we not publish in GeoArabia
or in the Bulletin of the American Petroleum Geologists? By the way
these projects were generally supported by Swiss grants.
I have been invited to take part in the Rub' Al Khali Expedition
because of my broad experience in different fields relating to arid
lands. One of the main goals of the reconnaissance trip is to propose
research projects. In addition to projects in my own fields I have
represented the interests of the meteorite team of our Institute which
is spearheaded by Dr. E. Gnos and Dr. B. Hofmann. Note that I myself
have never ever worked on meteorites but I am well informed on
meteorite research and problems related to it. My statement which is my
personal view concerning robbing of natural heritage is based on
following facts:
1) Omani meteorites have been out for sale already a few years ago
(partly at horrendous prices)
2) The large iron meteorite from Wabar (=Al Hadeedah) was about to be
smuggled out of Saudi Arabia. This action could be stopped virtually in
the last minute by the Saudis. Now you can admire this meteorite in the
new museum in Riyadh.
3) It took Dr. John Roobol a few minutes only to find in the internet
the price list of Wabar meteorite rocks of different kinds on sale in
the US. Try yourself!
4) A large number of meteorites have been collected from the Omani
desert and will never return
5) Collecting of meteorites and of any other samples in Antarctica
falls under the Antarctic Treaty and has to be approved by the mission
leader. All samples must be listed and recorded. Despite of this the US
legislators saw the need to pass a bill which declares unauthorized
possession and trading of meteorites as illegal. Why do you think this
action was necessary??
The meteorite research project of Drs Gnos and Hofmann is supported by
a grant of the Swiss National Science Foundation, the main granting
agency for basic research in Switzerland. As former vice-president of
the National Research Council of Swiss NSF I can assure you that this
project which is a Swiss-Omani Cooperation would not have been approved
without authorization by the responsible Omani institution to collect
meteorites. Why? Because Swiss NSF would have considered unauthorized
collecting as unethical. Moreover, a contract regulates the problem of
the storage of the samples.
You measure the success of collecting in grams. Whether this is
appropriate I would question; it is similar to measuring the
publication record of a scientist in kilograms rather than by impact
factor. Fact is that the Swiss-Omani Teams has so far collected more
than 4500 pieces, of which more than 3000 from a single strewn field.
More important however to me is the quality of the research carried out
on the material. And there I think their Science paper is a highlight -
and much more is to come. With regards to the webpage: Go to
www.geo.unibe.ch where you can find under "Publikationen" the full list
of all the members of our Institute, or search under the name of the
author e.g. Gnos.
You mention that the Swiss Team had had 30 years to get the meteorites
in Oman protected. There is indeed a more fundamental problem which is
related to developing countries i general . I recently met with
Professor W. Buttiker, former Editor of the series "Fauna of Arabia".
He had been working in the eighties as expert in MEPA (Meteorological
and Environmental Protection Administration) in Jeddah. MEPA had
recommended in 1984 to protect the Wabar Meteorite Crater and a large
area surrounding it - and, as you may know - it still has not yet
happened 20 years later. There is no reason to blame developing
countries for not looking better after their natural heritage. After
all it is only since a relatively short time that the first world
countries have recognized the need to protect geological and
paleontological sites of importance. Mapping geologists in Switzerland
had for years been reluctant to put new fossil sites etc on a map
because it usually did not take long that fossil hunters emptied these
sites and the material was lost for ever. Even worse, professional
fossil hunters using heaving mechanical equipment exploited such sites
only to make money. In contrast, since many years however professional
hunting for alpine crystals in fissures needs a permit. According to
Dr. John Roobol, SGS, professional exploitation of eg a new discovery
of a semi-precious stone site in Saudi Arabia had emptied the site a
couple months only each time after its occurrence had leaked.
Money-making being the motivation, of course.
In the two e-mail letters that were forwarded to me your activity is
called "hunting". This verb for me has a negative connotation. For
example, in Oman the government has been trying hard to re-introduce
the Oryx. However, the initial success is likely to end in a failure
because of illegal hunting (poaching).
To me whether meteorites are collected without authorization for sale
afterwards or for private collections followed by trading amongst
collectors (similar to what stamp collectors do) makes no difference.
Both are unethical. The problem of unethical behaviour has become an
important issue in the western world, and granting agencies have a
close eye on this issue. Whether eg a pharmacologist wants to collect
plants in the tropical forest of Brazil with the aim to discover new
pharmacologically active substances, or the agroindustry wants to get
new potato species from the Peruvian Andes, or meteorite hunters want
to collect meteorites in developing countries is all of the same. It
concerns the exploitation of the natural heritage of a nation - the
plant gene pool in the first cases and unique rocks in the other.
For me, however, the most important issue is to learn from past errors
and to look ahead and propose measures raising to consciousness in
developing countries for their natural heritage and the necessity for
its protection.
Albert Matter
Professor em. of Geology
______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
