Thanks, Sterling.
And with regret for having hastily responded to Bob without having
noticed Bob having made a point of writing me off-list. Have been at
work (and too exhausted) and I loved the distraction and jumped in
head-long. Sorrrrrry.
On Mar 15, 2009, at 4:17 PM, Sterling K. Webb wrote:
Darryl, Bob, Carl, List,
Check List Archives.
Like so many MetList topics, this one has been
exhaustively back-and-forthed some time ago.
There's enough stuff on the List for a Carancas
Casebook.
I posted translations of Carl's team's interviews
in Amarya translated into Spanish into English.
The original statements about animals (and people)
affected by the blast are to found there (assuming
you want original sources). I posted lots of discussion
about blast forces and distances, the size of the
blast, the speed of the impactor, theories about its
shape, calculations of the amount of material excavated,
even the source of the infamous smell.
Carancas as an event demonstrates nicely how hard it
is to apply what we think we know to what we think
happened. It has generated praised papers for both
the fluid dynamics model of re-entry and the particle-
path model -- one decides it was an abnormally slow
entry and the other decides it was a abnormally fast
entry.
Aren't models wonderful?
There are arguments about whether it's a pit or a crater,
whether the impactor was big or small, and the size of
the blast -- 3kTons? 5kTons? 10kTons? 15kTons?
20kTons? All have been calculated, with seismic evidence,
barometric evidence, and crater dynamics, all giving
different answers. The event has even generated a new
theory of meteoroid fragmentation.
Summary:
1. Several animals were killed.
2. Cause of death (ruptured internal organs)
is consistent with shock wave.
3. Distances are vague in the witness accounts,
but so are blast size guesses, but nothing
precludes any blast deaths.
4. There was a man close enough to be knocked
flat and left dazed or perhaps shortly unconcious.
Again, the distance was not precisely determined
but he was much further away than the animals.
Sterling K. Webb
--------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darryl Pitt" <dar...@dof3.com>
To: "Bob Loeffler" <b...@peaktopeak.com>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas Bull
Hi Bob...
Bomb blasts were introduced as a way of ramping into a discussion of
shock waves. Be it a bomb or an extraterrestrial impact, we're
talking about the rapid compression of environmental air pressure.
Let's look at Meteor Crater as an example. The impactor was a
fraction of the size of the crater; the volume of the crater was
primarily the result of shock waves; and we refer to the impact having
been responsible for the entire crater.
In fact Meteor Crater is of course referred to as an IMPACT crater. No
one makes the distinction of what aspect of the crater touched the
molecules of the impactor.
Returning to Carancas, I don't understand the distinction that a
bull---real or imagined---isn't considered "impacted" by the very same
shock waves responsible for the overall size of the "impact crater."
It's revealing that a casualty which results from shock waves created
by a bomb are defined as Primary Blast Injury. It seems logical the
same nomenclature will be applied to the first person who is a little
too close to the impact of cosmic debris.
Anyway....
Two points:
Does anyone know whether shock waves crated by an object the size of
Carancas could have been sufficient to have killed a nearby bull?
At least in the case of Valera, we know the "shoulder" (thoracic
vertebrae and scapula) were crushed by the impactor.
PRODUCT ENDORSEMENT: All of the aforementioned words were fueled by
Red Bull.
On Mar 15, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Bob Loeffler wrote:
Hi Darryl and Walter,
I'm not trying to start this debate up again, so I'm not posting
this to the
list.
I think you were getting off topic when talking about bomb blasts
and deaths
because that is not what a "hammer" or "hammer stone" is, according
to
Michael Blood who coined the term. If a meteorite hit a person (or
animal
or human artifact), it's a hammer stone. But if it hits the earth
and
creates a blast that hurts or kills a person, the meteorite is not a
hammer
stone because the blast affected the person, not the meteorite
itself. I
think that is the distinction that Walter was trying to convey.
Regards,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of
Darryl
Pitt
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:53 AM
To: Walter Branch
Cc: Meteorite Mailing List
Subject: [meteorite-list] Carancas Bull
Hiya,
My point was that an impact/blast that results in a mortality
producing shock wave is universally defined as an impact/blast
casualty. Your attempt to pull shock waves out of the equation in
an
assessment of an impact/blast is akin to taking water out the
equation
in a drowning.
Moving on, I feel I should clarify my position. I never liked the
term "hammer"---it feels so comic strip-y---and agree it's overused.
I agree with Anne's orthodoxy on the application of the term---except
as it pertains to the point addressed above.
All best / d,
On Mar 11, 2009, at 6:48 AM, Walter Branch wrote:
Hi Darryl,
Okay, but...
or scholarly assessment---
That's what I assumed we are attempting. This list is for meteorite
enthusiasts, not journalism enthusiasts.
I propose we stick to discussing meteorites, not bomb blasts.
-Walter
----- Original Message ----- From: "Darryl Pitt" <dar...@dof3.com>
To: "Walter Branch" <waltbra...@bellsouth.net>
Cc: "Meteorite Mailing List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] WG: AW: [IMCA] Hammers & Orientation
from Dave
Hi Walter!
With all respect....
In ANY report---except where there exist the specificity of a
coroner
or scholarly assessment---bomb victims are bomb victims.
There is never differentiation between those killed by blast injury,
penetrating wounds, blunt trauma or smoke/fire. In fact the
foregoing
types of injury are correctly referred to as primary, secondary,
tertiary and miscellaneous BLAST INJURIES. Primary blast injury is
specifically a rapid increase in air pressure--a shock wave.
If the bull was killed by a shock wave created by an impact---it was
killed by the impact.
And that's no bull....
;-)
On Mar 10, 2009, at 10:11 PM, Walter Branch wrote:
Hello Darryl,
is a bombing victim killed by a bomb-produced shock
wave not killed by the bomb?
No. They would killed by the shock wave.
If dirt kicked up by a meteorite hits a person, is said meteorite
then a "hammer?" No.
Like all analogies, it eventually breaks down.
It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end -
Douglas Adams.
-Walter Branch
----- Original Message ----- From: "Darryl Pitt" <dar...@dof3.com>
To: "Impactika" <impact...@aol.com>
Cc: <i...@imcamail.de>; "Martin Altmann" <altm...@meteorite-
martin.de>
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: WG: AW: [IMCA] Hammers & Orientation from Dave
(deep breath)
is a bombing victim killed by a bomb-produced shock wave not killed
by
the bomb?
hi anne! ;-)
On Mar 10, 2009, at 6:43 PM, Impactika wrote:
Hello Dave, and all,
I submit another example to you: Carancas, since it has been
discussed on the other List.
In my personal opinion, only one fragment of the Carancas
meteorite would qualify as a hammer: the fragment that hit the
house on the picture, but it would have to be properly
documented, with proof that this specific fragment, and not
another one, or a piece of ejecta, is the actual fragment that
damaged this roof. Any other fragment is just that: a fragment
of the Carancas meteorite. As for the animals, they might have
been hit by a shock wave, not by a fragment of the meteorite.
With the same logic, a few of the Park Forest fragments can
qualify as hammers, I am talking about the actual fragments that
hit cars, roofs, .... and only those. And again, only with
proper verifiable documentation. All other pieces of Park Forest
are just that: pieces of the Park Forest meteorite.
That still leaves Peekskill and Claxton as hammer meteorites,
since they are single stones, and witnessed, documented falls.
As for me, as a dealer, I will not use the term hammer on my
website unless I have absolute proof and documentation that a
certain specimen did hit a human, animal, or something man-made
(roads, trees, fields.... don't count!).
But that is my opinion.
Any others?
Anne Black
IMCA - #2356
In a message dated 03/10/09 09:16:39 Mountain Daylight Time,
altm...@meteorite-martin.de
writes:
Von: d...@fallingrocks.com [mailto:d...@fallingrocks.com]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. März 2009 15:47
An: Martin Altmann
Betreff: RE: AW: [IMCA] Hammers & Orientation
Hi, Martin,
Please forward this quick note back to the IMCA list; I'm on a web
interface and can't respond to the list from here...thanks:
. . . . . . . . . . .
The problem, at least in my view, with hammers is the fact that
they are most appreciated by the least meteorite-savvy buyers.
These newbie collectors are most exposed to paying a ridiculous
price because a piece of, say, Thuathe was found in the roof of
a hut -- yet the piece they're contemplating purchase around
was picked up in a field two miles away. Thuathe might not be
the best example, as it's a killer meteorite in its own right.
Your example of Gao- Guenie, though by no means reflected in
market pricing (yet, anyway), might be better.
. . . . . . . . . . .
Dave
IMCA #5967
www.fallingrocks.com
Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a
recession.
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