On Mar 23, 2007, at 14:22, Paul Wilkins wrote:
Henri Sivonen wrote:
On Mar 10, 2007, at 23:10, Paul Wilkins wrote:
You are using the BibTex format, which is covered in the
citation formats http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-formats
Sure, but considering that I share my .bib, should I expect people
to want to scrape my (X)HTML-formatted bibliography?
If the .bib is used as the lone source for the XHTML, I suspect it
would be easier to scrape the .bib file.
It is the lone source.
The citation microformat is a work in progress at this stage, so
it's not mature enough for programs to extract information from it,
I guess this means that I shouldn't try to support hCite on the
generator side in my thesis considering that the document should
go final on the first week of April.
Even though it goes final then, does that prevent you from later on
adding markup which doesn't affect the text, yet makes it easier
for tools to scrape through the information?
There's no technical barrier to updating the file, but as a matter of
archival principle, it seems wrong to tamper with the dated file
later on. Tampering with it could lower the confidence of readers in
the stability of the file as a version that corresponds exactly to
the official paper version in the university department library.
Would it be of any use to anyone if I wrapped the name of each
author/ editor in a <span class='fn'> if I otherwise leave my
markup the way it is now?
A formatted name is quite a restricted format, and if the formatted
name doesn't follow a certain prescribed format, it is considered
to be invalid and isn't used.
What about class='n'?
Currently the BibTeX is as follows
@Misc{AXML,
editor = {Tim Bray and Jean Paoli and C.M. Sperberg-McQueen},
title = {The Annotated XML 1.0 Specification},
year = {1998},
publisher = {O'Reilly Media, Inc.},
refdate = {2007-03-04},
url = {http://www.xml.com/pub/a/axml/axmlintro.html}
}
From which you are wanting to create the following kind of data.
[AXML]
The Annotated XML 1.0 Specification. Tim Bray, Jean Paoli and
C.M. Sperberg-McQueen, editors. O’Reilly Media, Inc., 1998. http://
www.xml.com/pub/a/axml/axmlintro.html (referenced: 2007-03-04)
The editor section alone will be interesting to markup, because the
citation will have to allow multiple editors, in which case both
the BibTeX and the microformat will have to be created from a
parent source, so that the microformat can gain the name-based
information in the format required, while still allowing that
information through to become the BibTeX file.
The current markup is:
<dt id="ref-AXML">[AXML]</dt><dd><p><a href="http://www.xml.com/pub/a/
axml/axmlintro.html"><cite class="title">The Annotated XML 1.0
Specification</cite></a>. <span class="editor">Tim Bray, Jean Paoli
and C.M. Sperberg-McQueen</span>, editors. <span
class="publisher">O’Reilly Media, Inc.</span>, <span
class="year">1998</span>. <span class="urlwrap"><a href="http://
www.xml.com/pub/a/axml/axmlintro.html" class="url">http://www.xml.com/
pub/a/axml/axmlintro.html</a> (referenced: <span
class="refdate">2007-03-04</span>)</span></p></dd>
So to extract the editors from <span class="editor">Tim Bray, Jean
Paoli and C.M. Sperberg-McQueen</span>, one would need to know that
it is OK to split on ", " and " and ". I could wrap each name in a
span with a class. But what class?
The benefits are that people visitng your content with next
generation tools wil be able to easily extract and use the
information in more interesting and useful ways.
So basically, my effort would not be about catering to specific
realistic foreseeable use cases. Instead, it would be about
putting data out there in case someone figures out a use case
later on.
It may be more useful to provide the ISBN number for the book. Then
the problems left to be solved become smaller and easier to handle.
Sorry, but I don't follow. What's "the book"?
Somehow, I was under the impression that hCite required
bibliography items as <li>s instead of <dt>/<dd> pairs (which is
what I use and what W3C and WHATWG specs use).
I'm sure that design patterns can be created to accommodate such a
scheme.
What I'm trying to say is that I think hCite should allow names to
be marked up as formatted names tossing the deformatting problem
to the consumer. After all, one of the most popular bibliography
data format, BibTeX, stores formatted names.
Currently the formatted names are accepted in the following formats
given-name (space) family-name
family-name (comma) given-name
family-name (comma) given-name-first-initial
family-name (space) given-name-first-initial (optional period)
In the .bib, there are names that don't follow those formats. For
example:
Michael I. Schwartzbach
C. M. Sperberg-McQueen
Arnaud Le Hors
Simon St. Laurent
Håkon Wium Lie
Geert Jan Bex
Jan Van den Bussche
Henrik Frystyk Nielsen
Roy Thomas Fielding
I'd rather not develop heuristics in my end for properly guessing the
semantics of the middle tokens. Especially when it is uncertain if
anyone will ever scape my bibliography with a tool that both needed
and understood semantic encoding of the different parts of the name.
How much granularity does BibTeX allow for when storing the
formated names for Editors?
I don't know what's officially allowed. My generator uses UTF-8-
encoded .bib, which is already stretching things a bit.
In general, you just write names in .bib in the usual little-endian
European format and BibTeX does some magic. I guess that in the real
BibTeX, there are heuristics for Dutch surnames (van der) and the like.
I am using a format where the given name comes first and the family
name comes last and whatever middle stuff is provided in the name of
the author on the work itself goes in the middle. C. M. Sperberg-
McQueen mentioned above is an exception, because the first name is
deliberately not provided in full. The output format I use is
intentionally lossless, so the given name isn't truncated and the
name surname isn't reordered.
--
Henri Sivonen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
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