I was working at Kennedy the night of the first big Northeast black out. Always claimed to be one of the first (of a bunch) to know the extent of the problem since I was working the handoff position, talking to New York Center. Center told me that Boston lost power, a few seconds later New York Center lost power, then we lost power. The only light we had in the radar room was from the telephone line panel which had about twenty back lit buttons. Such a panel was at each position (about nine) in the room.The phones continued to work, NOTHING ELSE DID.
Thank God the weather was clear and a hundred miles. We had six planes under our control. None of the ground based nav aids were working. The airport was completely dark with no runway lights or approach lights. If memory serves the planes were evenly split, three inbounds, three departures. Remarkably slow for sixish in New York. LaGuardia was pretty much in the same condition, so no help there. Newark had 5000 feet of runway lights, so I assume they got some of the JFK and LGA arrivals. The Center came up with some backup power so we coordinated with them on where our aircraft were when last seen. There is a large mental hospital out on Long Island, very near the Deer Park VOR (and my house for that matter) which had backup power and therefore lights. One or two of our arrivals entered a holding pattern using the hospital as a fix. I'm sure there was a lot of pilot to pilot communication and maybe even the use of Guard. I was surprised to learn, back in the day, that not all Center positions monitored guard. Don't know why. Note, we're talking pre-historic days. We didn't have GPS or TCAS (in the Air Force we might call it "brown shoes" days"- Lord I am old). I was working the radar approach position at approximately the same time the night before. As the saying goes, we had airplanes coming out our ears. Some thunderstorms, some big winds, a couple of missed approaches - I'm making it up now, but the bottom line was if it happened the night before it might have been a different story. By the way, we didn't get leave because of stress back in the day. So Jack if the whole system went dow we would assume TCAS and GPS, we would assume pilots followed their filed/cleared flight plan and that the "big sky-little airplanes would apply. Gets trickier in the terminal since inbounds are heading for the same runway(s). Then you use what you got pilot to pilot, TCAS and the windows in the airplane. Cheers Jim Loos P.S. Simon, right on with the paper strips. On Wed, Oct 22, 2025 at 6:18 PM Simon Brown via Mifnet < [email protected]> wrote: > Doug > > > > My take is that regardless of whether the ATC radios are working or not > the safer option would be to get all aircraft to continue to their flight > planned destination. Why? Because: > > > > 1. That’s where they’ve planned and briefed to go and are already > expected there with a reasonably accurate approximation of arrival time. > 2. It will prevent further increased workload for the crew, whose > workload will already be several levels above normal. > 3. Unlike 9-11 there’s no security threat that warrants and immediate > grounding of all airborne aircraft. > > > > I do agree with the ground stop. > > > > Continuing on the filed flight plan is the normal procedure expected by > pilots and ATC in the event of a comms failure in the aircraft so why not > stick to a philosophy and procedures that are already in place? > > > > If ATC have radios then they can co-ordinate arrivals procedurally, giving > each arriving aircraft an approach time to leave its particular arrival > waypoint. ATC can juggle this with whoever screams loudest for low fuel > (which shouldn’t be a problem as they all should be carrying standard IFR > reserves and one would hope that any pilot with an IQ above moronic level > would have started to conserve fuel as soon as they realised stuff was > hitting the fan). Or the aircraft themselves can trade arrival slots. I’ve > done this before when a runway has been taken out by an aircraft > temporarily blocking it. > > > > If ATC have no radios then you’ll find that the pilots will make a pretty > good fist of co-ordinating arrivals themselves, using a mixture of the > standard arrivals frequencies backed up by the emergency “guard” frequency. > Added to this would be any additional comms provided directly to aircraft > via ACARS and satphones. I would expect the ATC units could further assist > co-ordination via airline operations. Those aircraft not ACARS or satcom > equipped – and there are still plenty of those around – would get messages > relayed to them by the other aircraft regarding expected approach times. > This was common in the trans-Atlantic days of intermittent or poor HF which > wasn’t that long ago and worked pretty well. > > > > And as long as TCAS remains functional it will provide an essential fall > back option. > > > > I’ll bet the controllers would switch to paper strips for co-ordination > pretty quickly. > > > > Simon > > > > > > > > *From:* Doug Church via Mifnet <[email protected]> > *Sent:* 21 October 2025 22:39 > *To:* [email protected] > *Cc:* Jack Keady <[email protected]>; Doug Church <[email protected]> > *Subject:* [Mifnet 🛰 74542] Re: what if it went totally dark? > > > > Hi Jack, > > > > Can I assume the radios still work in that terrible scenario, just not the > scopes? If so, I'm guessing the first thing would be to instruct every > aircraft to enter a holding pattern and stay in place. Then issue a > nationwide ground stop. Nothing takes off. Everything airborne lands at the > nearest airport, just like 9/11. Controllers and pilots would work together > to figure out the sequencing and getting everyone down safely, giving > priority to any emergency fuel situations declared. > > > > Just my assumption. > > > > -Doug Church > > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2025 at 2:36 PM Jack Keady via Mifnet < > [email protected]> wrote: > > keady - below message prompts the question: what if the entire ATC system > went totally dark in the middle of the day? I'm assuming all flights would > continue per flight plan and that unicom would still be useful.near the > airfield, helped of course by TCAS. Is this true? > > > > This question raised by thoughts of both mechanical failure but also > deliberate sabotage. If you see the movie One Battle After Another it > portrays a sinister group that secretly operates to cause mayhem. It's only > a movie of course but China or Russia...............nuff said > > > > > > > > *Airline operations disrupted by Amazon Web Services outage > <https://r.smartbrief.com/resp/urdmCylCtemQrShUaDcfqkaleVbz?format=multipart>* > > Amazon Web Services experienced a significant outage Monday, causing > technical issues for major airlines such as Delta Air Lines and United > Airlines. Customers were unable to check in or access reservations through > airline websites and apps, leading to minor delays for Delta and system > glitches for United. United utilized backup systems to restore operations, > while Delta reported that significant customer impact was not expected to > continue. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Revised: 20250507 > > You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. > > The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't > exactly cost-free. 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See instructions at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > > * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > > * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: > [email protected]?subject=help > > * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: > https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies > > * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: > https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems > > * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Revised: 20250507 > > You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. > > The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't > exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the > effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: > https://wardell.us/url/mifbit > > All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: > > 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a > privilege--not a right. > 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the > author. > 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. > 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. > 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of other > Mifnet members. > > * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: > https://www.mifnet.com/ > > * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: > [email protected]?subject=leave > > * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: > [email protected] > > * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: > [email protected] > > * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates all > list traffic into 1-3 > messages daily. See instructions at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > > * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/ > > * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: > [email protected]?subject=help > > * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: > https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies > > * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: > https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems > > * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: > https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ > -- Cheers Jim Loos
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