On Saturday 07 April 2007 12:32:36 pm Will Maier wrote: > On Sat, Apr 07, 2007 at 12:11:23PM -0700, Merp.com Volunteer wrote: > > Considering all the workarounds to even just getting > > python/zope/plone to install, let alone the list of other > > bugs/issues related to that config on openbsd (that hasn't been an > > issue on other bsd and nix setups for us), as well as the > > scattered knowledge/experience of openbsd in the volunteer group > > (whereas most are familiar with Linux), should we just abandon the > > entire effort of converting to openbsd and just stick with Linux? > > You sound like a Linux shop.
I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it an entire migration. Nor a "linux shop". There are also freebsd, solaris, windoze <gasp>, and mac boxes in the mix. > It doesn't sound like your group has > sufficient background to migrate whole-hog to OpenBSD (or Solaris, > or AIX, or Windows). In this particular case we're just talking about one server for one portion of the website. It originally ran on solaris in the late 90s. It was moved to linux around '98 and the last major "upgrade" was 2001/2. This is a decentralized collaborative non-hierarchal group of volunteers around the world using whatever resources are at hand using operating systems from all over. So the skill set and resources can change significantly. Are you suggesting that openbsd just too obscure for us to consider using it? > What problem are you trying to solve by > migrating to OpenBSD? > We hope that openbsd is the right tool for the following: 1. maximal security benefits. My experience is no other publicly available OS takes security as seriously. We were unable to use OpenBSD during the last upgrade in 2001, because it didn't support multiple cpu's nor the scsi hardware raid at the time. Now that it does, I'd hoped it was now viable. 2. maximum longevity for using the same hardware for many years while handling extremely variable loads. Upgrades range from 5-10 years at a time. During the peak of the lord of the rings movies we were around 1.5 million unique visitors per month. Not huge, but more than this very specialized community usually experienced. It's petered off since, but is likely to pick up with the next movies on the way. 3. High uptime and low maintenance requirements (not having to constantly patch every week, etc.). 4. Low/affordable pricepoint (I've bought each version of openbsd since around 2.8/3.0 (fuzzy on exactly when) or so, to support it's development, even in periods where I didn't use it. However, in order to use it, it must support the hardware we have (not require something that we don't have), and support the key software components that are non-negotiable (python/zope/plone). > > Or will there be sufficient support from the openbsd community to > > help us get through the entire trainsition to openbsd? > > This list (and the other various parts of the user and developer > communities) is a great resource, but it shouldn't be part of your > migration plan. I was stating the openbsd community to mean the community as a whole, not just this list. > From what you've described, OpenBSD is a fine > technical solution to your problem. But with your group, it doesn't > sound like you can make it work in the time you have. As far as "in the time we have". There's no hard and fast deadline, but we never expected it to take this long. As long as the old server is still going, it's stopping us from launching the new version of our site, but it's not interfering with the current/old site. > Migrations are > big, scary things, and they need planning and experience. Even a > great list like this can't be the cornerstone of your plan. Yes, there are more folks using Linux, but if OpenBSD is the best tool for the job, I'd prefer we used that instead. However, if it's not the best tool for our needs, then we should figure out what is. Are you and Rogier basically saying "Openbsd is not for you"? It's interesting the different character of responses so far on this topic. I've posted in the past and had helpful responses that have stayed focused on helping solve the technical issue, without getting into a quasi-business/technical scope discussion. Maybe that's partly my fault for bringing up those concerns in a general sense. I'm just surprised by the people basically saying "you don't have enough openbsd experience, so you shouldn't use it". That's a counter-productive way to increase adoption of obsd. And definitely not the experience I've had over the years with the obsd community. Though I've been retired since '03, so I am a bit "rusty",(after working in the industry since 1981, albeit never any significant implementations of openbsd beyond firewalling), I'm well aware of what "migrations" are like on all scales, and in many levels. This is just a little side project that I've stepped into to try to help out with. It would be nice to have it in a far more organized structure and process, but that is not now how it is. As it is we just want to get this particular web server up and running. Myself and one other would like to believe openbsd is the best tool for the job in the long run. Though she is feeling very frustrated and doubtful now, she is admittedly far less experienced. The rest of the volunteers were open to it, but are not feeling very encouraged about it now, especially as these responses have been forwarded to the rest of them. The useful suggestions from J.R.R. Spiegel on this topic were much more along the lines of typical helpfulness that was expected. I hope that the dialog will stay more in that direction. Now, back on track. Does anyone have any suggestions for better instructions to use than the Eclectica website (that covers 3.8)? If not, any caveats other than already stated that maybe should be different from those directions? If no other better "howto" is available, I'll proceed using it if/until someone can point to a better resource (which would be gladly used). I will adjust the specs for the partitioning and get rid of the /boot mistake, which was definitely a mistaken "linuxism" by the person who originally tried to set this up. I'll adjust the wd0a and wd1a to once again be the root/bsd/boot partition, and the rest should easily fall back in place (hopefully). I'll post when I have results one way or another after following Spiegel's suggestions. Unless anyone has any other _technical_ suggestions or corrections to his post as caveats? Thank you, Cheers! -- *** Volunteer Team for the completely non-profit, non-revenue, non-business-entity dedicated to the Middle-earth Role-playing International Community at Merp.com "Fighting the noble battle against the dark forces, trying to keep alive, and growing, the dream and joy of role-playing gaming in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth" http://www.merp.com Mailing list subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC (Internet Relay Chat) Server: irc.merp.com (channel: #merpchat) Yahoo=merpcom ICQ=293-163-919 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alternate Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (in case you're blocked by our spam filters). Be sure to sign up for the 3rd annual International MerpCon (2007): July 27th, 28th, & 29th in Spokane, WA, USA. This event is not run by merp.com, but by a different group of volunteers, but merp.com has donated many services to help them out. Show them your support by signing up, spreading the word, and showing up. http://www.merpcon.com "I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama..." - John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, from a letter written to Milton Waldman, ca. 1951 -
