good post Grey - I aggree that the paper stock was typically more of a
flat uncoated stock with heavy
fibre content, also the stone lithos were printed on stone slabs that
left the telltale stone matrix as the LITHO
posters by metal plate typically have the Dot matrix that is used to
make plates. The screen half toned dots can be seen with a LOOP and are
easy,
The reproductions also didnt have the punchy INK colors of 30, 40, 50s
posters.
I beleieve because the Pigments were better as they didnt have EPA
regulations back then
The 70 80s 90 were done on enamel Coated stock 75 -100 lb weight and
some were varnished , aqueous coated stock. and some papers even were
hot stmped.
From all the Lobbie cards.. they seems to be printed on a card stock
and are a little harder to spot as were
the inserts and 1/ sheets.. the window cards are Chipboard mostly thats
been used years primarly in bakery boxes and gift boxes,,
The vegas s2 repros Im tod were done with Zinc metal platers NOT stone
litho slabs,, so they wer not true
stone lithos.
A footnote is that ART business news spoke of forgeries of art poster by
Picasso and Dali where the forgerers found Old stock paper to print
on... and eaven bleaching Old worthless posters and reprinting with the
valuable titles. so that could be wort it for a 50 -100 k poster I guess.
bleach the Ink out and reprint.... then you would have the vintage
paper....heck te south americans make money in columbia like that.
hope that helps.
Smith, Grey - 1367 wrote:
JR and Mopo
This whole incident just spotlights the fact that it is getting damn
near impossible for someone to authenticate a linen-backed poster (or
a card stock-based poster that has had its original card stock backing
replaced).
This is a gross overstatement. To be honest, it is not at all "near
impossible" to determine whether a linenbacked poster - or a lobby
card, for that matter, is authentic or not. Now that I have handled a
number of these forgeries, I feel confident that I know exactly what
I'm looking at.
For example, the paper that was used to replicate so many of these one
sheets is not at all hard to detect, as it is a thick stock laser copy
paper! It is very, very different from a standard one sheet printed
prior to, say, 1960. The process used to create the fake lobby cards
and other formats are pretty obvious now, as well.
That being said, it is certainly possible for the forgers to become
more sophisticated in their methods. But, to accurately reproduce a
one sheet on older stock with any degree of accuracy would surely cost
the forger somewhere in the neighborhood of $5,000 or more, depending
on the process perhaps a lot more. Of course, that's not a lot of
money when one is talking about a poster with a fair market value of
$30-$50,000 or more, but it is definitely a major investment.
Therefore, the creation of a fake poster is not a process that someone
undertakes lightly, I would think.
In other words, the movie poster collecting hobby is currently alive
and well (as I'm confident our upcoming Signature auction will
demonstrate).
The sky is NOT falling!
Best,
Grey Smith
From: MoPo List [mailto:mop...@listserv.american.edu] On Behalf Of
James Richard
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 1:30 PM
To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU
Subject: [MOPO] DRACULA-gate and Profile's Part in it
Steve,
While I think Profiles did a poor job of presenting the poster with
their low-quality pictures and initial sketchy description, they
actually *did* take responsibility and do the right thing prior to
putting it in their catalog -- they went to one of the most respected
experts in the field and paid him good money to carefully inspect and
authenticate the DRACULA poster and issue a certificate to that
effect. The fact that the expert blew it isn't really their fault and
they continued to behave responsibly once others started pointing out
problems. Well, OK, the community actually had to beat them over the
head about it, but hey, they had paid for a certificate of
authenticity from a recognized expert, so why shouldn't they have
stood by it as long as they did?
I don't believe that prior to these revelations that anyone in movie
poster collecting would have had anything but high praise for John
Davis and his capabilities. So, PIH went to the best available, not
some fly-by-night so-called "expert."
This whole incident just spotlights the fact that it is getting damn
near impossible for someone to authenticate a linen-backed poster (or
a card stock-based poster that has had its original card stock backing
replaced).
This is why I've been saying that the restoration and backing
operations have to police themselves, form an organization to
determine standards and practices (including identifying seals and
serial numbers in ink on the back of the linen which would be linked
to public disclosure of what work is done). This organization would
then issue an "underwriters laboratory" seal which a cooperating
restoration operations would display, thus assuring their customers
that they were complying with those standards and practices.
But what about the forger who puts on a fake seal and serial number
from some reputable restoration service?
Thats why public disclosure is absolutely necessary -- because if
anyone can look at that number on the back of the linen-backed poster,
call up that operation to confirm the number and that it is the same
poster they are looking at (and what work was done to it), then
putting such fraudulent identifying marks on a fake would be useless
-- and in fact would set off an immediate alarm that someone was
trying to pull a fast one.
The place to stop this fraud is on the restoration and backing tables.
-- JR
Steven F. Poole wrote:
Bang up job on the letter, Rich.
However, one area of all of this that I believe needs to be
addressed is the responsibility of Profiles itself. The auction house
is not a "victim," really, in this fiasco. As others have pointed
out previously on this forum, the auction house which charges about
1/5 of the hammer price on an item MUST stand in the docket when the
issue of fraud is raised.
They (auction houses) wax enthusiastically about their offerings
when it comes to advertising the wares that have been entrusted with
on consignment. They (auction houses) take their pound of flesh on
both ends in the form of consignment fees and buyer's premiums. They
(auction houses) must be held accountable when they promote a poster
that has a retail value of some $300 on the cover of their prestigious
catalogue and estimate that same poster to have a possible auction
value in the hundereds of thousands of dollars.
Sad, Sad, Sad. state of affairs. Proclaimed "ignorance" of
printing techniques is no excuse whatsoever as to their culpability in
this thwarted attempted massive fraud upon the hobby.
Steve Poole (
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