Hi Mark, Still our conversation to me seems to be going very chaotic very quickly. I think we need to slow down somehow… For now, let's focus on this quote of yours below which I think will bear the most fruit if we talk about it more..
> Yes, of course, because the whole thing is the creation of static > quality. We create these patterns with our bodies. It is our way of > interpretation. We create this idea of matter it does not exist > outside of our creation. Matter is an idea, it is something that we > have created in our heads in response to that which we connect to, get > it? That is why it is a ghost, get it? First we have to create it, > then the idea of matter comes into existence, get it? Sure we can say > that matter existed before ideas, but that is also an idea, get it? > We are talking about the Ghost of Reason here, get it? What we call > “matter” could care less what we see it to be. This does not mean > that we are creating trees as we walk through a forest, we are simply > naming view as trees with some synaptic pattern in our brains. What > we experience is the nerve firing in our heads, and not the trees. We > call this nerve firing “trees”. These trees do not exist as such > until we create them. They don’t exist as trees at all. Let me break this up and detail my response: > Yes, of course, because the whole thing is the creation of static > quality. We create these patterns with our bodies. It is our way of > interpretation. We create this idea of matter it does not exist > outside of our creation. Matter is an idea, it is something that we > have created in our heads in response to that which we connect to, get > it? That is why it is a ghost, get it? First we have to create it, > then the idea of matter comes into existence, get it? Sure we can say > that matter existed before ideas, but that is also an idea, get it? > We are talking about the Ghost of Reason here, get it? What we call > “matter” could care less what we see it to be. This does not mean > that we are creating trees as we walk through a forest, I agree right up to this point. > we are simply > naming view as trees with some synaptic pattern in our brains. What > we experience is the nerve firing in our heads, and not the trees. We > call this nerve firing “trees”. These trees do not exist as such > until we create them. They don’t exist as trees at all. Is a nerve firing really what creates our experience of trees? Is a 'nerve firing in our heads' what creates the 'trees'? Let me repost a quote here from Pirsig and go into this in more detail: "This is difficult to untangle. Bohr’s “observation” and the MOQ’s “quality event” are the same, but the contexts are different. The difference is rooted in the historic chickenand-egg controversy over whether matter came first and produces ideas, or ideas come first and produce what we know as matter. The MOQ says that Quality comes first, which produces ideas, which produce what we know as matter. The scientific community that has produced Complementarity, almost invariably presumes that matter comes first and produces ideas. However, as if to further the confusion, the MOQ says that the idea that matter comes first is a high quality idea! I think Bohr would say that philosophic idealism (i.e. ideas before matter) is a viable philosophy since complementarity allows multiple contradictory views to coexist." So, 'nerve's firing in our heads' is more 'matter'. They are no more real than the trees we experience which cause those nerve's firing in our heads. The MOQ says that where these ideas of 'trees' come from isn't random or just imaginary however. The MOQ says that it is a *high quality* idea to think that the trees and nerve firings exist and that we give these trees and nerve firings names. But what the MOQ reminds us is that really this is just an *idea*; like all other ideas which can be ranked based on how good they are. What do you think about this? Is what we call 'trees' actually 'nerve firings', or are the 'trees', something else? -David. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
